Ven. Tenzin Palmo – NO BHIKSHUNIS IN THE WORLD?

I have been waiting for someone to comment – publicly – on the ramifications of Venerable Thanissaro’s pronouncement that the Vinaya rule against ordaining more than a single nun at one time during a year
renders the ordination invalid.

As you all know, the great Emperor Ashoka sent his daughter Theri Sanghamitta to Sri Lanka in the 3rd century B.C. She travelled with several of her nuns at the invitation of Queen Anula and her five hundred court ladies who wished to be ordained. This ordination was subsequently carried out by Sanghamitta – but there is nowhere a suggestion that it was done one candidate at a time annually. If so most of those devoted ladies would have died long before entering the sangha. Later on according to the Mahavamsa chronicle there were 14,000 bhikkhunis who attained arahantship and 90,000 nuns participated in a consecration ceremony. Even given the tendency to exaggeration, this means that the bhikkhuni sangha was very strong in Sri Lanka.

In the 4th century CE bhikkhunis from Sri Lanka travelled to China and established the bhikkhuni order there by ordaining 300 Chinese nuns and of course this lineage has continued down to the present day with tens of thousands of bhikshunis spread throughout China, Taiwan, Korea and Vietnam.

But according to Venerable Thanissaro’s premise none of these above ordinations is valid! So for the past two and a half millennia nuns have been passing on and receiving invalid ordinations and there are therefore no ordained nuns in existence – nor have there been almost since the time of the Buddha. In addition, since in East Asian countries the shramanerika ordination is bestowed by bhikshunis, these ordinations are also not valid. All those hundreds of thousands of nuns throughout the centuries were in fact not nuns at all and not a part of the monastic sangha. How absurd.

It is also sad to think of an eminent scholar monk combing the Vinaya to prove that the ordination of devoted women eager to go forth in faith, was invalid and futile. Fortunately other scholars have come to the defence of the bhikshuni sangha with well-reasoned refutations, so hopefully we bhikshunis are not required to give back our robes.

All good wishes in the Dharma,

Tenzin Palmo

54 thoughts on “Ven. Tenzin Palmo – NO BHIKSHUNIS IN THE WORLD?

  1. There are clearly Tibetan nuns. Pema Chodron is another one. Does anyone know, then, why the Dalai Lama has discussed the necessity of getting the whole Tibetan sangha on board *before* reintroducing the bhikkhuni ordination? Or have I misunderstood?

    • Dear David,

      Traditional Tibetan nuns are based on the samaneri platform, with 36 extra precepts (I think). They have a terribly subordinate position in traditional Tibetan Buddhism, having little access to education and basic necessities. Even today nuns cannot complete the geshe education. The Tibetan word for woman means literally ‘lesser being’, so you can guess what kinds of attitudes there are. The issue of bhikkhuni ordination is fraught and highly tense in traditional Tibetan circles. The existing bhikkhunis are mainly Westerners (there is at least one Bhutanese) who have taken ordination in the Taiwanese or Korean traditions. They are accepted to practice within the Tibetan way, but from a Vinaya point of view they are regarded as Dharmaguptaka rather than Mulasarvastivada.

      I think it is overstating the Dalai Lama’s intention to say that he requires getting the whole Tibetan Sangha on board, which is a practical impossibility. I think it would require a high degree of agreement among the senior lamas. HH himself is unsure as to how much agreement is required, or how the agreement is to be reached. Still, at least his support is public and unambiguous – and he is not afraid to speak in praise of ‘equal rights’.

    • Maybe this is why he has hinted that he may be reborn a woman. He knows it will be nigh impossible to get consensus on equality in his lifetime, but if the DL is a woman, then that in itself will crumble at least a few walls.

      I wonder how the WPP monks would have felt and acted today had Ajahn Chah or any of the great teachers hinted something similiar in the Theravada tradition…

    • Perhaps a minor quibble but women relating to the Palyul Nyingma lineage have a parallel shedra (geshe/collage) that was set up by HH Penor Rinpoche. From my own experience with Tibetan Buddhist teachers, women certainly aren’t considered “lesser beings”.

    • Dear Sabbeloka,

      Thanks for this. That’s interesting news – perhaps the Nyingma do allow women to take a geshe degree? maybe someone more familiar with the Tibetan tradition can clarify this for us.

      I’m sure that in your experience with Tibetan teachers, as with most of us, women are treated well. But this doesn’t mirror the traditional forms of Tibetan society, but rather the skill and wisdom with which contemporary Tibetans have adapted to modernity. Certainly many of the leading Tibetan lamas are extremely supportive of women’s aspirations.

      I’m not trying to have a go at Tibetan culture here: with regards to women, it was, like all societies, a complex and shifting situation, with much that was very positive. Nevertheless, we should not excuse the flaws in traditions and justify continued discrimination simply on the grounds of cultural continuity.

      Interestingly, I had a chat with a (or the) Bhutanese bhikkhuni, who said that Bhutan was actually a very good place traditionally for women. The property was inherited matrilinearly.

    • Dear Venerable,

      Yes, in the Palyul tradition women may study equally with men and, as far as I know, the Kagyu are also moving towards full support &

      http://www.buddhanet.net/ordination01.htm

      a full ordination in Australia. The Tibetans have been forced to adapt because of circumstances in Tibet but they accept these circumstances as their kamma and acknowledge their own causes and conditions. They are also wise enough to know that misogyny and any hateful objectification of other will not bring them the support they need. One Rinpoche’s attitude towards women is that once a woman sets her heart and mind towards enlightenment, nothing can stop her. On the other hand, just because you want something doesn’t mean you’ll get it.

      I have been a practitioner since 1967 and I must say that at all times I have always received access to teachings equal to my Dhamma brothers and the only thing preventing my progress is my own sloth and fecklessness. In retreat, whether Zen, Vipassana or Tibetan practice, the meditation halls are filled with women. Things have really changed over the passed 30-40 years and it seems that only the Thai Elders and a few Western monks are a bit behind the times. I have practiced in Myanmar and have encountered both the “real” (fully ordained Mahayana) and “unreal” Thera nuns in retreat. Both seemed equally happy.

      I am interested, although slightly mystified, as to how some western monks can be so rigidly adhering to archaic forms from the Thai Thera tradition and yet at the same time be relating to & teaching practices such as Dzogchen/Mahamudra. My Thai teacher was Buddhadasa bhikkhu and he was rather an open minded being and interestingly could relate to Zen.

      But I heartily congratulate your group for the steps you are taking. As a Canadian, I note a bit of envy for lucky Aussies arising and I intend to support your work in some way as will many others. Deep prostrations!

  2. I salute with three deep bow to Venerable Tenzin Palmo. Her comment has melted the “snow” (unjust discrimination) around the “cave” (Bhikkuni Ordination). This is her call for liberation for all women in the Buddhist world. I cannot accept that a great compassionate Buddha would want to restrict Ordination of women with a Vinaya rule against ordaining more than a single nun at one time during a year. The great Noble One would wish all women be ordained at once so that they could walk the path to enligthenment. The great compassionate Buddha could not be afraid of being outnumbered or outvoted by ordained women ? So why one a year???

    • Hi guys,

      You guys think it is easy to be a Bhikkhuni under the theravada tradition. It is equal to “going forth” i.e. like the bhikkhus they too had to go forth to the forest or cave alone to meditate to transcend ego & desires.

      Unlike the Mahayana nuns, they do not have to go forth, they stay in nunnery or monastery and most of them do mostly chanting and very active in humanitarian projects, a good example Master Chen Yeng from Taiwan with her Tze Chi Foundation.

      Theravada is different from Mahayana in that their goals are also different. Theravada’s goal is Nibbana and Mahayana goal is Pure Land. What is the purpose of wearing the robe if it is not for achieving one’s goal.

      Wonder how are these 4 theravada Bhikkunis are going to “go forth”???.
      Is it practical & safe for them?, if not, they are equivalent to Mahayana Bhikkhunis.

      Theravada tradition is not just to comply with the Vinaya technically, but it is the actual hard core practice that counts. Just wearing the robes without “going forth” is meaningless under the Theravada but meaningful under the Mahayana, as they could contribute a lot to the society in humanitarian and welfare works.

      It would be more beneficial for the 4 Bhikkhunis in Perth to be under Mahayana when what they were doing was more “Mahayanist” than “Theravadist”.

    • Hi Devotees,

      Before insulting the four bhikkhunis you may want to check the facts as Bhante Sujato has suggested.

      Let me tell you that I have come across a lot of so-called Theravada bhikkus who cannot come close to the bhikkunis at Dhammasara in terms of the vinaya and dhamma practice.

      Denigrating remarks such as yours do not provide answers to the questions discussed here. Let’s keep the discussion based on facts please.

    • Hi Devotees,

      “Going forth” is more than just go to the forest or cave alone to meditate to transcend ego & desires. Look at all the true practising Theravadan Bhikkus and observe what they do, reach out to the society by teaching the Dhamma to all sentient beings and practising the Vinaya themselves to set a living example for others to follow. This is how they transcend ego and desires, not hiding in the cave. You are also unfair in your remarks about the Mahayana nuns unless you are referring to those who are in robes but not practising the true Buddha Dhamma. True pratising Mahayana nuns practised compassion and Bodhicitta, emulating the qualities of Bodhisattva, selflessly secrificing themselves to commit to the mission of relieving the sufferings of all sentient beings .

    • It might be possible to move beyond the rigid classifications of “Mahayana” & “Theravada”. I was interested to read in Amaro Bhikkhu’s book, “Small Boat, Great Mountain”, that he suggests that we need to use the form and at the same time, see beyond it. Small Boat, Great Mountain is the story of Ajahn Amaro, a Theravadan teacher giving a teaching with the Dzogchen master, Tsoknyi Rinpoche. Apparently there was some initial concern over “delicate issues of status” such as height of thrones and such, but not much concern over issues of doctrine. This book is about the coming together of traditions & as a Vipassana practitioner, I’ve found it a great benefit.

      May all find freedom from suffering and the causes of suffering in the vast freedom of the Natural Great Perfection.

  3. David,
    Please see the statement by His Holiness made at the Congress in 2007. Obviously in his position, he could not simply wave his wand and erase the deeply rooted predjudices in his entourage. Given his precarious political position, he has enough battles to fight. But he took a clear stand- please see his statement below. I was there and in addition to his clear statement below, I understood him to suggest: if you go forth and ordain as Bhikkhunis, you do not need my blessing: what is done, shall be done and cannot be undone. And when the greater community stands by you, supports you, receives your teaching, grows, then your Sangha has been established and cannot be undone. And indeed this is happening. Take a look.

    http://www.congress-on-buddhist-women.org/index.php?id=142

  4. Associate with the wise,
    Honour those who are worthy of honour –
    This is a blessing.
    Need we give more air time to clouded seeing? If we have seen clearly, let us continue on that path. Associate with those who have had this realization. Put our energies in building on this. We do not need to bring everyone with us.

    • Lisa

      Thanks for the link. Great statement from the DL.

      I agree with the way to proceed. It’s done, so lets keep doing it.

  5. Thank you for these incisive remarks, Venerable Tenzin Palmo. You’ve made clear how Thanissaro Bhikkhu’s remarks were begging the question–a fallacious argument that directly presumes the conclusion which is at question in the first place.

    I have much respect for Ajahn Thanissaro as a meditation teacher and dhamma scholar. However, to use an American idiom, he has a reputation for getting on his high horse. For the most part, this has been harmless and has only evoked eye-rolling. Unfortunately, this time he has contributed to the confusion and suffering of many. May his great intelligence help him find a way to remedy the damage he has done.

  6. Lisa Karuna :
    David,
    … in addition to his clear statement below, I understood him to suggest: if you go forth and ordain as Bhikkhunis, you do not need my blessing: what is done, shall be done and cannot be undone. And when the greater community stands by you, supports you, receives your teaching, grows, then your Sangha has been established and cannot be undone. And indeed this is happening. Take a look.
    http://www.congress-on-buddhist-women.org/index.php?id=142

    Though I wanted to stay out of this discussion because what is done is done and it is time to move on, I find your point you made about the DL’s position straight to the core of what we all should focus on. We should work on making it happen and work and not get to wound up about this label or that label.

    With metta :)

    • Spot on Ace. However, this whole issue started and continues because the English Sangha and the WPP Sangha strongly believe that the label is important, is it not? That’s why they even had to expel Ven. Brahm from the ‘club’ otherwise they would just said ‘that Brahm is crazy’ and ignored the bhikkhuni ordinations. It is the wanting to safeguard ‘Thai tradition’ (ie. LABEL) that has caused so much disharmony. Even at this late stage, if that ‘precious’ label can be dropped the issue will be resolved on its own.

  7. Ajahn Sujato,
    Can you tell us a little about lineage? As I continue to search for a new Sangha (unfortunately yours is rather far away, and ultimately if I am blessed enough to ordain I would like to be close to my parents- who made it all possible for me) I notice many of the more “innovative” types I have gravitated towards outside of the shade of the old oak tree are rather “new” (breakaway/reform) lineages- OR – they are non-monastic, in the vein of IMS and Goenka. I am very keen on Thich Nhat Hanh’s community, it seems to fit many of my aspirations (simplicity, without rigidity; integrity; non-discrimination; heart over head; engaged; not attached too rigidly to a Mahayana or Theravadan “form”; dedication to lengthy daily practice as well as sutta study) – I am not asking you to comment on this particular lineage, but I confess for a few years I harboured this inclination to stick with the bad boyfriend because that “long solid line of oak trees” I perceive as “lineage” looks so safe and secure…(many of us may now be floating between old Sangha and “new Sangha”)…can you comment on the question of lineage… (or point us towards the places where you most likely already have?) Thank you!!

    • Dear Lisa, I love reading your comments but just want to clarify that from the Theravada perspective Ajahn Chah has ended his cycling through samsara. He was a fully enlightened arahant. He will not have been reborn again into all this suffering. He penetrated Anatta and moved onto penetrating the 4 noble truths fully. Much much metta to you.

  8. I know I said I was done commenting on here, but I have to know what you people are smoking ? The more I read the better I feel. Dont forget you never know the out come of kamma and the way you guys are headed there could be some wipelash or back lash. Better get out your life boats could be headed for bad weather. Maybe their is some kind of wacky cult thing going on down under. And “Bhanta” Sujato I have just lost all respect for you. Crocodile Dundee has more class then you.

    • Oh dear, you are bewildering indeed. Talk about a karmic consequence to insult a venerable monk..”wipelash” (sic) indeed.

    • Huh, so there has been no insults to any venerable monks on this page or this blog ? I guess some have selective eyesight. I guess we are all in the same karmic boat then…! And the loss of respect for this venerable monk is because this is his blog and I have not once seen him correct anyone for the venom that is spewed.

    • Ah yes, but you are Captain Hypocrite my dear. And no doubt a “little” bewildered. Pun and double entendre intended.

    • If Bhante Sujato has less class than Crocodile Dundee that shows he is a step closer to selflessness and I wish I could achieve that feat. Step down from your high class, bewildered1, and you will see that not identifying yourself with a class or a club is the good, straight, true and proper way!!

    • After some thought, I believe your right and my remark was out of line and not very funny. So please forgive me for trying to be a comedian. To tell the truth I really liked watching Bhante Sujato on youtube before all this started.

    • Dear bewildered1, the above was a comment from the Venerable Tenzin Palmo, not Ajahn Sujato himself. This blog provides a source and discussion for those on the ‘side’ of the ordinations because sadly the other ‘side’ has become a wall of rock. Let’s hope dialogue can start between these ‘sides’, then continue so we can all understand each other more clearly.

      We’re not enlightened, we act as people act when an emotive issue comes to light.

      But you do make a good point that we shouldn’t forget all the wonderful teachings the WPP monks have brought, and the lineage itself which gave us Ajahn Brahm and all HIS monks. We shouldn’t forget that and start to show disrespect.

      Two bad bricks indeed even if they are big bricks.

    • I fully understand that and where the above comment came from…! How much clearer do I have to be ? Do me a favor, try to pretend your not on a “SIDE” and go back and really read this blog,not just this page but all of them. There is a lot of stuff where sujato as a teacher should have had set people straight on their very disrespectful comments to the robe he wears. Also, is there a way to delete my account on word press ?

    • Bewildered

      I don’t respect a robe. Why would I respect a piece of cloth? I really don’t understand all this standing on ceremony, “etiquette” and offence-taking that seems to go on.

      I respect someone’s attempt to live more wisely and compassionately, monk or lay, robe or no robe, and however much they fail or succeed. That’s it.

      As for all this precedence and etiquette stuff and who goes first in the food queue, why don’t you just go in the order in which you happen to turn up however old you are and whatever gender?

    • Hi David,

      Regarding food queues, there is a traditional value of granting precedence to seniors. In the family this would mean the grandparents, parents, and so on. In some cases it might mean favoring hospitality for guests. In Buddhist etiquette it means serving the Sangha first. This is not something that should be insisted on, but it makes sense in a monastery where the food has been offered and prepared primarily for the Sangha.

      But more subtly, this practice relates to the very old and complex issue of commensality, a critical issue in social structure. if anyone’s confused about how this works in Buddhism, i would suggest reading up a little into customs around this to get a sense for how important it is in traditional societies.

    • Dear Bewildered1,

      I’ve read most of these pages. Ajahn Sujato, from memory does admit if he is in error or is emotive, infact I believe he asked us all to comment on his actions.

      In putting his NAME to this blog, he is holding himself accontable for his OWN comments.

      He is not responsible for everyone else’s comments and that is exactly how I personally would want it! I don’t want a teacher reprimanding me for speaking on an issue like this when there are so few forums where we can openly discuss and connect with others on this issue.

      Three cheers for accountability and transparency.

  9. TS-Teck Suan :
    You are also unfair in your remarks about the Mahayana nuns unless you are referring to those who are in robes but not practising the true Buddha Dhamma. True pratising Mahayana nuns practised compassion and Bodhicitta, emulating the qualities of Bodhisattva, selflessly secrificing themselves to commit to the mission of relieving the sufferings of all sentient beings .

    A very good point. Also, may I add that I have seen so many Mahayana monks and nuns who appear to be a lot more sincere practitioners of the dhamma compared to some of the Theravada monks. It is time that we let go of the conceit in the belief that nothing is better than the Theravada tradition. Let us remind ourselves of the Buddha’s word – that it is just a rafter to get across and that we should not cling to it let alone think it is better than anything else. After all there are people of other religions and atheists who are much better human beings compared to some of the ‘Buddhists’ in this world.

    • Thanks to both Guptila and TS: I didn’t comment on this point, simply because it is a very obvious thing on which I have commented many times before. But, as we see, it needs to keep on being said.

      The prejudice between different branches of Buddhism is silly. Theravadins often use ‘Mahayana’ simply as a term of insult; and ‘Hinayana’, of course, has always been nothing but a term of insult. This kind of low-level exchanging of insults is, perhaps, not as vicious as intra-religious conflict in many other faiths, but it really does sully the waters. If we are going to criticize, let us do it on rational grounds in order to accomplish a worthwhile purpose.

  10. Applying this sort of legalistic analysis to the Bhikkhu lineage would also clearly question that lineage. Can anyone be certain that all Bhikkhu today come from an unbroken line from the Buddha? What about the issues of ordinations by preceptors that have broken a parajika precept, disputes about the validity of Siima boundaries, disputes over the wording of the ordinations. What about the technical validity of the 1000’s of previous ordinations in a line before each monk? This cannot be guaranteed.

    So such legalistic technical analysis is a double edged sword.

    Bankei

  11. bewildered1 I don’t think there’s a way to delete your account. I would suggest if this blog is upsetting you just simply stop reading and posting. No point being masochistic if it makes you angry or hurt, it’s just a discussion on the internet and sometimes can come across as harsh or abrupt, as I hope this response hasn’t!

    Metta

    • Your right Dee, but its like a car crash its hard not to look. Maybe thats why their called defilements,and I for one have not freed myself from as of yet. Sometimes I really wonder if there is away out of Saṃsāra. Like George Carlin said,humans are “dumb”. Here’s another great George Carlin quote,-If it’s true that our species is alone in the universe, then I’d have to say the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. Maybe nihilism is the way to go? Or is that just another ism?

    • Dear Bewildered,
      I dont see sides in this dialogue. I see attachments and a struggle to find Sangha that resonates for each of us. I too try to wrestle away and it sways from genuine concern to let it go vs. attachment. And I must say highly entertaining to start looking at each of our patterns – what makes us jump in – what makes us retreat – fascinating. We can even see it in the blogs from monastics. Those who are newer to the dialogue are following patterns we have seen in previous dialogues. I think I know what to say that will bring you back from your cushion next time. I will save it and see what happens. :-) But seriously invite you to join in considering this dialogue part of the undoing of our individual and collective clinging to identities. I dont believe this is about sides or camps. It’s a struggle with how identified we are with a particular Sangha – and self – and a struggle to redefine all of that.

  12. @Bankei, it’s true what you say. I have heard Bhikkhus from other lineages state that Ajahn Chah’s ordination was invalid and attributing his lengthy coma to that. At the time I was horrified that monastics would question another monastics ordination, especially in front of a lay person.

    But now the bhikkhus in the Ajahn Chah tradition are doing the same thing and feel completely justified in doing so. Personally, I am embarrassed by and ashamed of them. The term Hinayana is still used perjoratively here in the states to describe the Theravada tradition, and many of us have defended our tradition against these accusations of narrow-minded and selfish intentions. But one has to question the monastics who cling to the “vinaya” as a way of rejecting women. This very same vinaya says that monks shouldn’t wear shoes, jackets, or ride in cars, etc. Notice how there is no clinging to these points.

    To Ajahn Punnadhammo and the other naysaying monastics and lay people who read and find fault with our comments here, I want to remind them that by “winning” the argument, they will likely lose support. If supporting Bhikkhuni ordinations and the integrity of the Siladharas is worth alienating supporters, then have at it. The great majority of westerners would like to see this resolved in a respectful and equitable manner. If not, then we will go where we are respected and treated equitably.

    Most western practitioners are not superstitious nor willing to be brow beaten by self -important and mean-spirited people, even those in robes.

    • Hi Sarana. I wonder on what basis they alleged the Ajahn Chah’s ordination was invalid?

      Maybe hinayana is a good description for the WPP monks?

      Bankei

    • Dear Bankei,

      I have not heard this before. I would doubt there is any serious concern over Ajahn chah’s ordination as such, but probably the usual attitude among some of the Dhammayuttika that the Mahanikaya ordination is not really valid. After all, when Ajahn Chah (Mahanikaya) offered to re-ordain under Ajahn Mun (Dhammayuttika), Ajahn Mun said there was no need, and that he could do more good staying in the Mahanikaya. More recently, so I’ve heard, Ajahn Maha Bua has said that there is no real difference between Dhammayuttika and Mahanikaya any more, such have been the decline in standards among the Dhammayuttika.

  13. I fear the anti-bhikkhuni camp has upped the ante by attacking even the legitimacy of the Dharmagupta bhikshuni lineage. Not the first time this is done.

  14. Lisa Karuna :Dear Bewildered,I dont see sides in this dialogue. I see attachments and a struggle to find Sangha that resonates for each of us. I too try to wrestle away and it sways from genuine concern to let it go vs. attachment. And I must say highly entertaining to start looking at each of our patterns – what makes us jump in – what makes us retreat – fascinating. We can even see it in the blogs from monastics. Those who are newer to the dialogue are following patterns we have seen in previous dialogues. I think I know what to say that will bring you back from your cushion next time. I will save it and see what happens. But seriously invite you to join in considering this dialogue part of the undoing of our individual and collective clinging to identities. I dont believe this is about sides or camps. It’s a struggle with how identified we are with a particular Sangha – and self – and a struggle to redefine all of that.

    I agree, please don’t go away Bewildered1. It would be dreadful if we all agreed with each other and became ‘yes men’ (or women) and never questioned each other and never changed our minds… Lots of metta.

  15. This journalist lived in Thailand for about 2 years. Thanissaro Bhikkhu pertains to the Thailand Forest Sangha Tradition. I made an interview with the Abbot of Wat Dusit, Pinkao, Bangkok, years ago. To my surprise, he declared that the only valid ordinations of Bhikshunis (Bhikkhunis) were those done when Gautama Buddha was alive in the world. He said: “NO BUDDHA, NO BHIKKHUNI.” This is precisely what Bhikkhu Thanissaro has said, but in a more careful, and veiled way. This means that the Bhikkhuni lineage was extinguished by the Thai Forest Sangha, within the Thai Forest Sangha, only, whether in Thailand or out of it. Such being the fact, only the BHIKSHUNI lineage is permanent.

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