On retreat for a little while

Dear all,

Just to let you know I’ll be away on retreat for the next ten days or so. I’m going to Perth this afternoon, and will teach ten days of metta at the Jhana Grove.

I look forward to catching up with you when I get back.

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27 thoughts on “On retreat for a little while

  1. I wonder if by day 10 you will be able to send some to Ajahn Sumedho? :)
    Hope it goes well for you and all participents.

  2. Dear Bhante, may your practice on this retreat be of great benefit, for your own well-being and happiness, and for the well-being and happiness of many other sentient beings. Or as you might put it, I hope it’s all kinds of awesome.

  3. do they still follow the garudummers in Perth? When will they go?
    Who will take over at Santi?
    Im still stuck on St Georges TCe assisting with environmental destruction

    keen to get out but the garudummers put me off

    Aung San Suu Kyi is out of house of arrest and has no trace of bitterness. What an amazing person.

    • Whether or not the Garudhammas are practised in a place is a tricky thing to define. It should be remembered that several of the Garudhammas are actually (also) vinaya rules for Bhikkhunis, and it is probable that they migrated from the vinaya into the Garudhammas story rather than vice-verca. Also some of the garudhammas are ignored (such as the rule about staying in a monastery where there is no Bhikkhu, and I think the rule about undergoing penance before both sanghas, though I’m not sure on that point), they might also follow the spirit of the garudhamma (for example training for 2 years) without actually following the letter of it (they don’t actually have sikkhamana training) and they may be correct in doing so (sikkhamana training is probably only for teenage girls, so then there is no need for sikkhamana training except for teenage girls, but then there is also no need for 2 years training for adult women).

      However the short answer is basically yes, they do. In practise it probably hardly ever comes up at the moment, because the Dhammasara Bhikkhunis actually are junior to the Bodhinyana Bhikkhus they’ll be interacting with, and most the rules are also in vinaya, so even if they sad “Lets not follow the garudhammas”, they wouldn’t be doing much differently, and if they bent over backwards to adhere strictly to the garudhammas they’d have to do things differently.

      The (also vinaya) rule about going for exhortation fortnightly is I believe generally regarded as them by positive, because it gives them a reason to go to Bodhinyana and be taught personally by Ajahn Brahm. Previously, before being fully ordained, they’d usually just put a recording on. At least, that is what I have heard. Generally when something is really vinaya, it’s compassionate and beneficial.

      With metta,
      Ven. Nandiya.

    • Whether or not the Garudhammas are practised in a place is a tricky thing to define. It should be remembered that several of the Garudhammas are actually (also) vinaya rules for Bhikkhunis, and it is probable that they migrated from the vinaya into the Garudhammas story rather than vice-verca. Also some of the garudhammas are ignored (such as the rule about staying in a monastery where there is no Bhikkhu, and I think the rule about undergoing penance before both sanghas, though I’m not sure on that point), they might also follow the spirit of the garudhamma (for example training for 2 years) without actually following the letter of it (they don’t actually have sikkhamana training) and they may be correct in doing so (sikkhamana training is probably only for teenage girls, so then there is no need for sikkhamana training except for teenage girls, but then there is also no need for 2 years training for adult women).

      However the short answer is basically yes, they do. In practise it probably hardly ever comes up at the moment, because the Dhammasara Bhikkhunis actually are junior to the Bodhinyana Bhikkhus they’ll be interacting with, and most the rules are also in vinaya, so even if they sad “Lets not follow the garudhammas”, they wouldn’t be doing much differently, and if they bent over backwards to adhere strictly to the garudhammas they’d have to do things differently.

      The (also vinaya) rule about going for exhortation fortnightly is I believe generally regarded as them by positive, because it gives them a reason to go to Bodhinyana and be taught personally by Ajahn Brahm. Previously, before being fully ordained, they’d usually just put a recording on. At least, that is what I have heard. Generally when something is really vinaya, it’s compassionate and beneficial.

      With metta,
      Ven. Nandiya.

    • Well then making different rules for men and women is neither compasionate nor beneficial so get rid of them!

  4. There should be no rules different for men and women – first you say there are no rules now (what when you have got some women in ) you change your minds and say the bigoted rules that enforce women as slaves and servants to men is wrong.

    Make up your minds: are you mysognists or not – or is it just when it suits you.

    it is hard to beleive someone like Ajahn Brahm who talk after talk speaks of freedom has all these rules and expects women to follow more rules than men – it seems excessively hypociritcal – his talks say nothing of this type bigot, sexist, rubbish… are they just a sales pitch.. then once you get women in do you just abuse them and use them to bow and scape to them.

    I cannot beleive Ajahn Brahm would be such a liar, bigot and mysogyents.

    Men and women should follow the same rules – no more no less

    If I was a women ordained in a bigoted sexist religion the first thing I would do is kick the first young ordained male monk right in the nuts –

    ….now would that be following the Vinaya?

    Then when I had to go in front of a bunch of dominating sexist thugs that call themselves monks I would not think oh wow we I get teachings from a monk I would say

    sorry I had some bad thoughts I thought you were all a bunch of arsholes.

    I am not too sure what the rest of the rules are… but that is probable a good thing!

    It seems to me you would have to be desparate or a bit of a whore to condon and follow rules of subserviance to men – but then they are the sort of women men like.. so maybe it is true.

    THEY IS NO PLACE FOR YOUR POLICIES OF EVIL, SUBSERVIANCE AND SLAVERY TOWARDS WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY !
    VINAYA RULES OR NOT THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE! and that is all they are!

    IF THIS IS WHAT AJAHN BRAHM SUPPORTST THEN WHY DOES HE NOT ADMIT IT AND STOP GETTING PEOPLE IN BY CLAIMING HE DOESN’T SUPPORT RULES AND REGULATION OF EVIL BIGOTRY AGAINST WOMEN!

    • Marj the thing is most theravadins are hopelessly selfish, their ethic behaviour is based on liberating theirselves. You should read some Dogen. A true man of the way works for all living beings. Why am i more important than any other being? It is even ignorant to think there is someone to liberate. Liberation is the vain of life to enter in. Both man and woman can tap into it without distinction.

      with great compassion,

      gotamist

      zazen is about settling (samatha) and insight (illumination)! Hongzhi Zhengjue; guidepost of silent illumination.

    • I don’t agree, I have been to other forms of Buddhism and all their talk of compassion is just that. As I think I said quite strongly in another post it is all about hierachy and power with these groups…the advertising of compassion gets people in but it is just submission to hieracy.

      I have not been to many Zen Groups maybe I will though

      The worst thing for Buddhism is I believe the power given to young boys or young men (or even young girls) being given protege status.

      This upsets the natural flow of things. Most groups or organisation in the world status is given just naturally by those that contribute – people are not singled out as special better or different, they have to earn it by more than just birth, there is a natural flow that works well and a respect based on karma not on bias, a respect that is earned not forced on people.

      Buddhism seems stuck in the past on this issue and possibly the guaradhamma are the most destructive thing. Women it seems cannot feel comfortable in contributing and are dismissed and treated with disrespect if they do, or just ignored, whereas young men can say shit and still expect or getted treated with respect.

      Possibly there needs to be more attention paid toward who is ordained – why are young men so dismissive or full of hatred for women given status and/or allowed to ordain?

      I don’t think Buddhism will grow naturally until it is allowed to and the natural course of things is allowed to flow without constantly being interupted by the bias targetting of certain people, ages or sexes.

      I have a wonderful unplaneed experience the other day where I saw a buddhist who I had not seen for a while and I felt this harmonious acceptance and peace, she is not my sort of Buddhist but still I had this vision of how nice the interaction was, oif left to develop naturally or through what karma we create the syncronicity just happens and whether you are there sort of buddhist or not it is still a good thing.. then of course I read some other buddhist thing by some controlling protege of another group and yet again felt that disharmony- the moment was lost and the mandance experience of Buddhism as a bias institution that shows overt disrepect for beings other than young men and young girls if they are the favourites of teachers was back again… ho hum

  5. Actually they have discovered the complimentary 8 rules for men: didn’t you know?

    Here they are:

    All women are absolutely gorgeious and have fabulous bodies no matter what! right

    When you see a women on the footpath you should fall to the path, lick it clean

    Men are forbidden to meet fortnightly with women for teachings because they wouldn’t understand it anyway.

    Men are forbidden to be exhorted or whatever by women on a monthly basis just incase physical damage may occur to them and for there own safety – at this time you should see yourselves as nothing more than collatorial damage and something or just agree with everhthing.

    Men are not allowed to disclose their wrong doings to women on a forthnightly basis because women know this already and don’t want to be bored to death with you problems and issues – instead go visit your mums instead

    Men should stay alone in the forest or whereever who cares… do what you want – whatever

    Men should not give teachings to women because women no everything anyway

    • Hi Marj,

      At Santi Monastery we actually don’t observe the garudhammas. We pay respect according to seniority (i.e. junior monks bow to senior nuns). I personally have chosen to train for 2 years as a samanera before taking full ordination, because while I can’t choose to make the world stop discriminating, I can choose what I do myself, and I do not wish to leapfrog my sisters in the holy life (note that even if we were to say “well, women only need to train for 1 year. We still can’t necessarily make other bhikkhunis ordain them if they require ordination candidates to have trained for 2 years as a Samaneri).

      In part I chose to ordain at Santi because of the maturity shown to women. If Santi wasn’t a place where women were welcome to train as equals in the holy life, there is a 0% chance I’d be here.

      If you want to kick someone in the nuts, you can kick me there. I don’t know if it’d accomplish what you want though.

      With metta,
      Ven. Nandiya.

    • In acquiring the dharma, all acquire the dharma equally. All should pay homage to and hold in esteem one who has acquired the dharma. Do not make an issue of whether it is a man or a woman. This is the most wondrous law of the buddha dharma.

      Dogen Zenji

    • “This upsets the natural flow of things. Most groups or organisation in the world status is given just naturally by those that contribute”

      Actually that is a wildly overexaggered sentence… think I should say “in some” not most …

    • Just ignore, what do they know. Your practice is your practice, nobody can even dream to pronounce or defile it. True wisdom transcends gender anyone who claims otherwise will be reborn as a donkey for 5000 lives.

    • I know but it just seems these Buddhist organisation are all the same .. like cardboard cut outs… they are so predictable, always the same.

      Mahayana, theravarding etc they must just all read the same how to run a monesty manual or somthing.
      always some young monk controlling and telling everyone what to do – while the older wiser teachers stay in teh background acting like they know nothign about it – or sometimes it is a girl.

      Honesty when I was that age I would have rather died than try to order around and control people twice my age, it was or would have been considered the height of rudeness and disrespect, young men or women would just not do it! – it would have been considered the lowest and most ill mannered thing to do for a young man or women to try to control or tell anyone older than themselves by more than a generation what to do… the most humilating and lowest of the low; even to this day i don’t know any young men who would show such disrespect to my older female relatives – no matter what they do or even women I work with – it just does not happen in australia and ususally if these young men or women try it they don’t last too long.

      They may try to suggest in a kind way or offer support but they would never ever take on a higher role or attitude or thing they could tell them what to do.

      Honestly it would be considered the most ill-mannered thing for any young person to do – yet these eastern cultures encourage it.

      Sure you might be kind and supportive, but for anyone to act like that was just unimaginable.. but the Dali Lama and his like encourage this … I wish they would keep their vile cultural practises to their own countries and not bring them here.

      It is the same as expecting nuns to bow to young men – .. it is ususally only the lower classes, the working classes that expect women to be lower than them.

      A couple of weeks ago I let a older gentlemen, well educated, wealthy well dressed walk through the door before me, I thought he was going to die with embarrassment… conversely in another town where it is really working class and rough the men there look like they will take out an shotgun and shoot anyone who doesn’t let them go first. So I think alot of that is just a lower class mentality all that putting women down stuff.

      Anyway maybe Zen is worth a try.

  6. 2. A nun must not spend the rains in a residence where there is no monk.
    Explanation: You have to consider what is the historical context of the rule. Firstly, the rule was made 2600 years ago, in ancient India. It was very dangerous for a woman to be alone at that time (regarding of the robbers, bandits, the animals, the snakes… as the rain season in India is the time for animals breeding), that is why it is reasonable for this rule to be made. E.g if they were attacked by bandits or snakes or tigers, they could call the monks for help.
    Remember, there is an incident about Uppalavana, one of the 10 best female students of the Buddha. She went alone for the meditation and was raped by her cousin. Of course that cousin was thrown into the Avici hell right away (http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Suttas/Dhammapada/05-Bala/05-bala.html) That is the reason why the nuns were forbidden to go out alone or to live as hermits in the forests.
    => This rule was made not to make the nuns depend on the monks, but to provide them a safe place in the most dangerous time in India 2600 years ago.

    I should ask you one question: If you have a daughter and a son who always came back home alone at 3 or 4 am, which one whom do you care more and worry more? I suppose the former. And I think the Buddha thought the same at that time.

    3. Every half month a nun should desire two things from the Order of monks : the asking (as to the date) of the Observance day, and the coming for the exhortation (of a monk).
    Explanation:
    Firstly, the sangha of the monks and nuns, which one were establish first? Of course the former. The sangha of nuns was formed later after Venerable Ananda requested the Buddha. => The monks could be consider the “seniors” at that time. What is the purpose of the rule? It reminds the nuns must be humble and must always seek for the Dhamma knowledge through the exhortation/teaching of the monks-the seniors at that time. If someone who never accepts the advices and other teachings but think that he/she has studied and known enough, his/her ego would rise. I suppose you will know the result of this matter.

    For the rest of the rules, I think you can find of the explanation yourself, based on the context of the social and historical ancient India. If you can still not find the answer, I’ll type all the explanation from my masters here.

    The final things my masters said is, as far as it was written in the sutta/sutras, the monks cannot refuse the request from the nuns (3rd rule). Furthermore, the rules was made without asking the opinion of the monks (the Buddha only asked the nuns if they agreed with these rules or not.) That means, he put the sangha of the monks in a “done and not reversible” situation. So, whom do you think the Buddha care for more?

    As far as I know, the rules were made for only one purpose: not to let the nuns go stray away from the Dhamma; in order to break their ego, and provide them a more stable base for the future Enlightenment. Is there anything wrong with that?

    With metta.

  7. Hi,

    OK just testing your reaction (as I am sure the Guradamma test women’s/mine) –

    I am sure Venerable Nandiya you are a good Monk.

    To be honest I don’t really understand the system or how it works – it is all a bit much at my age but I think it probably works well whatever it is; best of luck with it.

    I don’t really understand the point of becoming a nun except if it gets you to enlightenment quicker – or possibly if you are really young after some training be useful to other people, if they are not just full of conceit, arrogance and wanting to control.

    Lay people can get enlighted too and can also help people on the way, not just dump there family and friends and then turn around and say to the world I am a great compassionate Buddhist.

    Possibly Ajahn Brahm has to sick by his tradition abit too – apart from the sexual discrimination they obvioulsy do some good, at least for themselves if not for other people. After all it was apparently “radical” of him to even ordain women and most men/monks might have no idea about women and probably ordain the wrong ones anyway and make it worse for women.

    I know alot of women “bosses” make it worse and even more sexually discriminatory for women than a men, and after all men having been the “workers” longer than women, they therefore have abit more experience with all that stuff.

    Although there is alot of hidden sexism in the West and massive amounts of sexual stereotyping it is just very hard for a women in the West to understand or fathom this attitude; like saying no more cars we are using horse and carts, like there is good in that too, but it still seems abit backward.

    And honestly women are probably pretty use to, if reasonably young and/or “pretty” in the West or have some sort of position (or think they have to be like that) to getting what they want from MEN with out too much effort or work.
    ,
    (With regard the eight rules for men – the first one should probably only apply to lay men if they want to have a happy ha ha :) and maybe the firlfirend wife should thost be considered the most desirable, ha hah

    Best wishes,

    • Hi Marj,

      I don’t really know how to respond. I don’t know if you have some major misconceptions about BSWA and Ajahn Brahm and what they do, or if you were just making stuff up to sound like a loony. But I will assume the former in good faith, apologies if I’m wrong.

      In any case please don’t criticize Ajahn Brahm, he’s done far more for women’s ordination than almost anyone else, and he’s also lost far more by taking a stand. I mean it’s not that he’s done a relatively huge amount in terms of effort like manhours, but the actions he has taken have been far-reaching, immensely controversial, and earned him a lot of heat and hate. One nun who went to Thailand said that a Thai woman said to her that Ajahn Brahm was “worse than a murderer” for ordaining women. A senior Wat Pah Pong Ajahn commented that Ajahn Brahm “severely misunderestimated” the situation. There’s a lot of vemon, there’s a lot of anger, there’s a lot of hate. Ajahn Brahm doesn’t want to stir that up more than necessary and please don’t blame him for that too severely, it’s not his fault that all that hate exists, and he does a lot to try and improve things, don’t criticize him too severely for wanting to take a middle path, where you push some boundaries but also compromise some, often that’s a very skilful approach. I don’t know if it’s the best approach in this case, but it is a workable approach.

      I don’t think anyone would say that the Dhammasara nuns are oppressed. I don’t know if you’ve been exposed to some weird groups or if you were just playing the loony, but basically how it works in Theravada Buddhism is there is a strong “boys club” mentality with monks. The girls just aren’t welcome in the club, period. They’re not integrated in some perverse and exploitive way, they are simply excluded. Btw Santi Monastery doesn’t have that mentality, but that’s virtually unique amongst Theravadin forest monasteries. Now in BSWA they have their boys club which is Bodhinyana, but they also have a girl’s club which is Dhammasara, it’s for the Nun’s and the boys aren’t welcome. One can argue about the relative wisdom of co-ed vs gender segregation, but in any case the situation is one of equal opportunity not of discrimination. The two monasteries operate nearly entirely independently – this is actually how monks like it, they don’t want to have anything to do with nuns if they can help it (this has been my experience) – but it’s also viewed as beneficial for the Nuns to develop their independence.
      Ajahn Brahm and Bodhinyana are extremely supportive of Dhammasara, for example, a little while ago I saw a person ask on the Dhammaloka forums what they could give to Bodhinyana, and Ajahn Brahmali said to give to Dhammasara instead to help build their new Sala and stuff. And I believe that the nuns normally go fortnightly to Bodhinyana to partake in the teachings, and I believe that interaction is appreciated a great deal by them because most of them have gone forth out of faith in Ajahn Brahm. But basically they are independent, and Bodhinyana takes a nurturing role in helping the nuns to grow. It’s not the least bit oppressive and you’d have to be really distorted to believe that. Because the communities are independent, the garudhammas virtually never come up in practise. If the nuns were a group of monks, they’d still pay respects to Ajahn Brahm just the same because he’s so much more senior than them. This is probably also one reason why they don’t feel it’s the right time to push for eliminating the garudhammas. It’s a more pertinent issue at Santi because the monks are more junior and we get more visiting Mahayana Bhikkhunis some of whom are quite senior (like 30 vassa), so when the situation actually came up of Bhikkhunis who were more senior than the most senior bhikkhu, then it was decided, well, lets bow according to seniority (I asked Bhante Sujato about the history, and he said that they never really thought about it and never actually decided not to follow the garudhammas, when the situation came up, they just decided to pay respects according to seniority and disregard what the garudhammas said). I think something like that will happen with BSWA, when the nuns gets more senior and it actually becomes something that matters not just in principle but in practise too, then they’ll just do what seems appropriate. It’s practically taken as self-evident that the garudhammas aren’t authentic and in such cases it’s usually most sane to just ignore the fantasy rather than taking a stance against it, which would pointlessly upset those who still believe in it (a lot like telling kiddies that Santa Claus isn’t real – they’ll probably still believe what their parents say anyway).

      Anyway that’s enough from me,
      Metta,
      Nandiya.

    • Ajahn brahm is a teacher that doesn’t know how to reach people that are unsure, he sounds like he knows everything, a true fundamentalist. By the way Brahm, nimitta’s are even created by the use of ketamine.

  8. Marj, you should try to exercise some restraint with your emotional outpourings in a public forum. Something to think about as you grow up.

  9. Hi

    As far as I am concerned Ajahn Brahm is the best Buddhist teacher or just Buddhist in the Universe.

    I completely understand how and why he has to compromise, I don’t understand the culture but I just find it sad that Buddhism is at such a retarded level of maturity on those issues.

    I am not acting like a loony – I am just like that, and I couldn’t give a flying f—- what you and you smug self-important bunch of 20-30 generation think of me.

    It is not my problem that Monestries turn out to be nothing more than boys clubs and institutes for women haters or men with issues regarding women.

    Hatred is one of the worst defilements but yet hating (women) is just seen as normal – and they still claim to be Buddhist, sorry don’t get it – but there must be some ego satisfaction or sense of importance in wearing a robe and calling yourself Buddhist; or is there a reason they are in some sort of institution?

    It is abit like me claiming to be a lawyer but hating reading, and the law and never doing anything and never practising it but sitting in a big office and taking peoples money and looking important is a swanky suit.

    If it makes monks feel important and special to live in a monestry and wearing robes it is none of my business and to be quite honest I could not care less. I have never been to a monestry and probably never will and I don’t no many if any women who are or could care less about visiting one –

    As for Sujato’s Mahayana youth infatuated i monestry or should I say your Master’s monestry (after all you are the protege and boy of sujato aren’t you – ) and the seniority thing – yeah they are the loonies I got involved with too – forcing people to be slaves to the proteges of the Masters, punishing and making slaves of people who weren’t born enlightened – that is another power trip that I find bizarre and also one they call Buddhism too.

    Have you people calling yourself Buddhists got nothing else to do but try to force women over the age of sexual attraction or child birth to be slaves and servants to the great holy masters protegese or men! Do you have any other purpose in Buddhism other than that, why don’t you do something useful – look after sick animals or something. It is like you feed off, live off and spend you existance hating women who you aren’t sexually attrated to or over the age of Child birth or conversely dismissing tham and having aversion to them if you can’t make them respect and be slaves to you and you young mahayana whores.

    I may not be a monk or nun but at least I have better things to do with my life that that.!

    No really call yourselves what ever you want and live in places that support that – i am sure it does some good; and what is more I really do wish you the best.

    One thing- please don’t make out that I have any issues with Ajahn Brahm – Guardhammas or not, he is the one Buddhist I do consider a buddhist, and listening to his talks has helped me alot. I wish him well and thank him profoundly for that.

    But also I think as apparently the Buddha said – follow the Dhamma, the teachings is the final way to go and that is certainly all i intend to do – not your monestries, hierachy tedious and endless male-female issues (for God sake it is 2012!and Buddhist are still acting like 10 year old in a play ground on that issue), the infatution with young girls who leave home at 15 and find the Dhamma – good on you but so f…… what!

    I wish you all well and the best with your infatuations and male-females issues.

    • …and one more thing

      Personally even if they do follow the Guardhammas I cannot understand any woman who would have a problem with the nuns at Dhammaloka. That is of course a superficial judgement as I have only seen them on the internet (and as I am am happy where I live don’t want to anyway) and you have to admire them for wanting to be nuns and to be able to live like in a fish bowl with people watching and visiiting etc.. that would drive me nuts (of sorry even more nuts)

      But seriously they seem like good strong intelligent and kind women so personally I cannot understand why anyone would accuse Ajahn Brahm of poor judgement or ordaining women that aren’t suitable and would cause trouble or make this situation worse.

      i think some of the Mahayana nuns are great but also giving so much power to some of them, has done more harm to women than good – that is just my opinion and experience

  10. If they are going to have a Abbot or Abbotess (even though apparrently that is not Buddhist, whatever) I vote for one or both of the Senior Nuns at Dhammaloka – yeh!

  11. Heard a lot about the bhikkhuni ordination, seems like lot of hatred. One ex-monk informed me about this document, it can be downloaded from http://www.scribd.com/doc/64780914/The-Nude-Monk-s-Burning-Robes

    In this document a Sri Lankan senior monk called Ariyadhamma says (on page 99), “starting a bhikkhuni dispensation means ‘grabbing the key to hell’s gate.” I was shocked how a Buddhist monk can hold such a narrow minded view, but then after reading the whole document it became clear, knowing lot of Dhamma superficially doesn’t mean that one has Dhamma within.

    Truth is fascinating than fiction, one can learn a lot about modern Theravada Buddhism.

    With METTA,
    Jake

  12. seems like monks are not that open. why sujato secretly remove my post about a theravada critique? is this blog only for information that he likes? is he another control freak? perhaps what marj saying is true. if sujato afraid to reply openly as he is afraid to post my post, then send his explanation to my email: jake.sully@gmx.us

    • Take it easy. As anyone who reads this blog knows well, I have not had much time to reply to comments, and it sometimes takes some time to respond.

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