Why Buddhists Should be Vegetarian
The Buddha ate meat. This is a fairly well attested fact. The issue of vegetarianism is addressed a few times in the Suttas, notably the Jivaka Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya. The Buddha consistently affirmed that monastics were permitted to eat meat, as long as it was not killed intentionally for them. There are numerous passages in the Vinaya that refer to the Buddha or the monastics eating meat, and meat is regularly mentioned as one of the standard foods.
For these reasons, the standard position in Theravada Buddhism is that there is no ethical problem with eating meat. If you want to be vegetarian, that is a purely optional choice. Most Theravadins, whether lay or monastic, eat meat, and claim to be acting within the ethical guidelines of the Buddha’s teachings.
This position sits squarely within a straightforward application of the law of kamma, understood as intention. Eating meat involves no intention to do harm. As there is no intention, there is no kamma. As there is no kamma, there is no ethical problem.
The situation in Mahayana is more complicated. Mahayanists, especially in East Asia, embrace vegetarianism, often as a temporary measure for religious events, although the monastics are typically vegetarian all the time. The motivation is, at least in part, an expression of the greater emphasis on compassion in Mahayana. In practice, however, Mahayanists often adopt vegetarianism (as do Hindus) as a rite of purification. This is despite such texts as the Amagandha Sutta of the Sutta Nipata, where the Buddha insists that eating meat is not a source of spiritual impurity. Tibetan monastics, on the other hand, usually eat meat.
Despite the apparently straightforward situation in Theravada, the problem does not go away. For obvious reasons: eating meat requires the killing of animals, and this directly violates the first precept. Eating meat is the direct cause of an immense quantity of suffering for sentient beings. Many people, myself included, struggle with the notion that a religion as categorically opposed to violence as Buddhism can so blithely wave away the suffering inherent in eating meat.
Let’s have a closer look and see if we can discern the roots of this problem. There are a few considerations that I would like to begin with. We live in a very different world today than the Buddha lived in, and Buddhist ethics, whatever else they may be, must always be a pragmatic response to real world conditions.
Animals suffer much more today than they did 2500 years ago. In the Buddha’s time, and indeed everywhere up until the invention of modern farming, animals had a much better life. Chickens would wander round the village, or were kept in a coop. Cows roamed the fields. The invention of the factory farm changed all this. Today, the life of most meat animals is unimaginable suffering. I won’t go into this in detail, but if you are not aware of the conditions in factory farms, you should be. Factory farms get away with it, not because they are actually humane, but because they are so mind-bendingly horrific that most people just don’t want to know. We turn away, and our inattention allows the horror to continue.
The other huge change since the Buddha’s time is the destruction of the environment. We are all aware of the damage caused by energy production and wasteful consumerism. But one of the largest, yet least known, contributors to global warming and environmental destruction generally is eating meat. The basic problem is that meat is higher on the food chain as compared with plants, so more resources are required to produce nutrition in the form of meat. In the past this was not an issue, as food animals typically ate things that were not food for humans, like grass. Today, however, most food animals live on grains and other resource-intensive products. This means that meat requires more energy, water, space, and all other resources. In addition to the general burden on the environment, this creates a range of localised problems, due to the use of fertilisers, the disposal of vast amounts of animal waste, and so on.
One entirely predictable outcome of factory farming is the emergence of virulent new diseases. We have all heard of ‘swine flu’ and ‘bird flu’; but the media rarely raises the question: why are these two new threats derived from the two types of animals that are most used in factory farming? The answer is obvious, and has been predicted by opponents of factory farming for decades. In order to force animals to live together in such overcrowded, unnatural conditions, they must be fed a regular diet of antibiotics, as any disease is immediately spread through the whole facility. The outcome of this, as inevitable as the immutable principles of natural selection, is the emergence of virulent new strains of antibiotic resistant diseases. In coming years, as the limited varieties of antibiotics gradually lose their efficacy, this threat will recur in more and more devastating forms.
So, as compared with the Buddha’s day, eating meat involves far more cruelty, it damages the environment, and it creates diseases. If we approach this question as one of weights and balance, then the scales have tipped drastically to the side of not eating meat.
Sometimes in Theravada vegetarianism is slighted, as it is traditionally associated with the ‘5 points’ of Devadatta. Devadatta wanted to prove he was better than the Buddha, so he asked the Buddha to enforce five ascetic practices, such as only accepting alms food, live all their lives in the forest, and so on. These practices are regarded as praiseworthy, and Devadatta’s fault was not in promoting these as such, but in seeking to make them compulsory. Stories of the Buddha’s childhood emphasize how compassionate he was compared to Devadatta’s cruelty to animals, perhaps because of Devadatta’s asscoiation with vegetarianism. So rather than deprecating the vegetarians as ‘followers of Devadatta’, one could infer from this passage that vegetarianism, like the other practices, was praiseworthy, but the Buddha did not wish to make it compulsory.
To argue in such a way, however, is clutching at straws. There is a wider problem, and I think the discussions of the issue among Buddhists generally avoid this. And the wider issue is this: meat eating is clearly harmful. That harm is a direct but unintended consequence of eating meat. Since there is no intention to cause harm, eating meat is not bad kamma. There are therefore two logical possibilities: eating meat is ethical; or kamma is not a complete account of ethics.
Let us look more closely at this second possibility. The notion that actions should not be done, even when they involve no harmful intention, is found constantly in the Vinaya. For example, a monk is criticised for baking bricks that have small creatures in them, even though he was unaware of them and did not intend any harm. The Buddha laid down a rule forbidding this.
In another case, the Buddha laid down a rule that a monastic must inquire about the source of meat before accepting it. The context of this rule was that someone had offered human flesh (their own – it’s a long story!) and this rule is usually said to only apply if one has doubts as to whether the food is human flesh. But that is not what the rule states – it simply says that one should inquire as the the source of the meat, and that it is an offence to eat meat without doing so. Needless to say, this rule is ignored throughout Theravada.
These are a couple of examples in the context of causing harm to beings. There are many others. Indeed, there are several Vinaya rules that were laid down in response to the actions of arahants. An arahant cannot act in an intentionally harmful manner, so these rules cannot be taken to imply that the motivation behind the acts was wrong. The acts have unintended harmful consequences, and this is why they are prohibited.
In this sense, if the Vinaya pertains to sila, or ethics, then the scope of sila is broader than the scope of kamma. This is, when you think about it, common sense. Kamma deals only with intention and the consequences of intentional action. This is critical because of its place in the path to liberation. We can change our intentions, and thereby purify our minds and eventually find release from rebirth. That is the significance of kamma to us as individuals.
But ethics is not just a matter of individual personal development. It is also a social question, or even wider, an environmental question in the broad sense. How do we relate to our human and natural context in the most positive and constructive way?
I am suggesting that, while kamma deals with the personal, ethics includes both the personal and the environmental.
As well as broadening ethics in this way, I would suggest we should deepen it. Ethics is not just what is allowable. Sure, you can argue that eating meat is allowable. You can get away with it. That doesn’t mean that it’s a good thing. What if we ask, not what can I get away with, but what can I aspire to?
When we recite the first precept, we say, ‘I undertake the training to refrain from killing living beings’. This is a challenge, and in itself is a powerful ethics. Yet it is merely a short summary of a principle. It was never meant to fully describe the virtue of harmlessness. When the Buddha spoke of this precept in more detail, this is what he had to say:
Having abandoned the taking of life, refraining from the taking of life, one dwells without violence, with the knife laid down, scrupulous, full of mercy, trembling with compassion for all sentient beings.
This is not just an ethic of allowability. It doesn’t merely set a minimum standard. It calls us out, asking us to aspire to a higher sense of compassion, an ethic that deeply feels for the welfare of all beings. More than just asking, ‘Does this act come from an intention to harm’, we ask ourselves, ‘Is this act the best I can possibly do to promote the welfare of all?’ Rather than simply escaping bad kamma, we create good kamma.
One obvious criticism of this approach is that being vegetarian does not mean you don’t cause harm. We hurt beings in many unintentional way, driving cars, buying products, almost everything we do. If we follow this principle to its logical conclusion, we end up with Jainism, and will have to walk everywhere with a cloth over our mouth to keep the flies from dying, and a soft broom to brush the creatures away. (Note, though, that even the Jains have a complex relationship with vegetarianism.) It is simply arbitrary to identify meat eating as the cause of harm. This is, after all, the point of the well-known (though apocryphal) story of Siddhattha as a young boy, seeing the plough turning up the soil, killing some worms, and leaving the others to be picked off by the crows. Even eating rice involves the unintentional destruction of life. The only solution is to get off the wheel.
The problem with this argument is that it confuses the existential with the ethical. On an existential level, quite right, any form of life, even the most scrupulous, will inevitably cause harm to some beings. This is one of the reasons why the only final solution is escape from rebirth altogether. Yet meanwhile, we are still here. Ethics is not concerned with the ultimate escape from all suffering, but with minimising the harm and maximising the benefit we can do right here. It is relative and contextual. Sure, being vegetarian or vegan we will still cause harm. And sure, there are boundary issues as to what is really vegetarian (Honey? Bees are killed. Sugar? Animal bones are used for the purification process… )
But the fact that we can’t do everything does not imply that we shouldn’t do this thing. The simple fact is that eating meat cause massive and direct harm to many creatures. That harm is, almost always, easily avoidable. Becoming vegetarian does not involve any huge sacrifices or moral courage. It just takes a little restraint and care. This is even more so today, when there is a wide range of delicious, cheap, nutritious vegetarian foods available. The choice of becoming vegetarian is, of all moral choices we can make, one of the most beneficial, at the smallest cost to ourselves.
To return to the basic problem. As Buddhists, we expect that the Buddha kept the highest possible ethical conduct. And for the most part, he did. So if the Buddha allowed something, we feel there can’t be anything wrong with it. There is nothing dogmatic or unreasonable about such an expectation. When we read the Suttas and the Vinaya, we find again and again that the Buddha’s conduct was, indeed, of the highest order.
How then, if meat eating is an inferior ethical standard, can it be that the Buddha did it? This is the crux of the matter. And I don’t have an easy answer.
Part of it is to do with the nature of the mendicant life. The Buddha and his disciples wandered from house to house, simply accepting whatever was offered. It’s hard to refuse offerings given in such a spirit. Yet this answer is incomplete, as there are many foods, including several types of meat, that are prohibited in the Vinaya. Clearly the monastics were expected to have some say over what went into their bowls.
There are other considerations I could raise. But I don’t want to press the textual argument too far. In the end, we have a partial, and partially understood record of the Buddha’s life and teachings. For those of us who have been blessed enough to have encountered the Dhamma, we have found it to be an uplifting and wise guide to life.
And yet: we cannot let our ethical choices be dictated by ancient texts. Right and wrong are too important. The scriptures do not contain everything, and do not answer every question. As Buddhists, we take the texts seriously, and do not lightly discard their lessons. Yet there is a difference between learning from scripture and submitting to it.
There are some things that the scriptures simply get wrong. The Suttas make no critique of slavery, for example, and yet for us this is one of the most heinous of all crimes.
Why are these things as they are? I don’t know. I have devoted a considerable portion of my life to studying and understanding the Buddhist scriptures, and in almost all things of importance I find them to be impeccable. But my study has also shown me the limits of study. We cannot access the truth through scripture. We can only access certain ideas. Our understanding and application of those ideas is of necessity imperfect. There is always something left over.
This being so, it is unethical to cite scripture as a justification for doing harm. If eating meat is harmful and unnecessary, it remains so whatever the texts say. Our sacred texts are sacred, not because they determine what is right and wrong, but because they inform our choices and help us to do better.
The principle of harmlessness underlies the very fabric of the Dhamma, and if its application in this context is problematic, the principle itself is not in question. It simply means our scriptures are imperfect, and the practice of ethics is complex and messy. But we knew that already. It is not out of disrespect that we make our choice, but out of respect for the deeper principles of compassion and harmlessness.



Bhante, you said “…and indeed everywhere up until the invention of modern farming, animals had a much better life”. It is not just modern farming methods but there are other wants (or needs?) of humans that directly cause cruelty to animals.
This is quite graphically pointed out in the video clip ‘Earthlings’ (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142) which I encourage alll your readers to watch.
The other issue is that there is a significant rise in the number of non-Buddhists who are becoming vegetarians in the hope of reducing cruelty to animals. This certainly is going to be a thorny issue for Buddhists who prefer to ignore the issue and yet preach about compassion.
Thanks, Guptila. Yes, there are many forms of cruelty other than modern farming. But in sheer scale and intensity of suffering, I think the factory farm is unparalleled.
For once I find myself in complete disagreement with you Bhante. It is a complex issue that I’ve spent a great deal of time looking into.
I find it impossible to summarize all of the issues in a brief response to a blog post, but if you really look into the complex human relationship with food the root of the cruelty is not meat eating, it is agriculture, which is a quite recent phenomenon in the broader context of our history. I suggest taking a look at the wonderfully radical work of Derrick Jensen, Lierre Keith’s “The Vegetarian Myth,” and a great article by Gary Snyder, now over two decades old, from his book “The Practice of the Wild,” which I provide an excerpt of in my blog post shared below.
This link from the Weston Price Foundation gives a good overview of the fundamentals:
http://www.westonaprice.org/about-the-foundation/vegetarian-tour
If we care about compassion in our dietary choices, we need to be radical in the Buddhist sense of the word, and the root of the problem is not meat-eating, it is civilization. Lierre Keith suggest that one guideline to compassionate choices is to choose food whose existence does not deplete topsoil. What’s appropriate will vary depending on where one lives, but a traditional diet based on foods that are truly local to you, which excludes both factory-farmed animals and row crops, processed foods, soy product and most grains, is a good place to start.
Keith and Jansen are two prominent names in the so called “anarcho primitive” movement that I’ve been introduced to in recent years by old Dharma friends. I find their core messages to be second only to the Buddha’s in their going-to-the-root radicalism. The Buddha turned his back on civilization (in the literal sense of “living in cities”) and in a very fundamental way our survival as a species – and our dietary choices and health – depend on doing the same.
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the feedback and the links. I have a general familiarity with the ideas you refer to, but will be interested to learn more.
In brief: Perhaps the difference is that I am aiming lower here. I don’t have high expectations of samsara, and I am suspicious of any program to radically change society. I was never trying to say that vegetarianism will solve the problems of society or whatever. Which is not to say that I sympathize with our friend Obo’s dismissal of any broader ethical concerns. I just think it is better and more compassionate, given the actual choices that people face day to day, to choose vegetables than to choose meat. This is something that anyone can and I believe should do.
On the Weston A. Price Foundation taken from Wikipedia: “The foundation has been criticised by medical and health experts for “purveying misleading information” and “failing to update their recommendations in light of contradictory evidence.
John Robbins MD has written a critique in which he reviews the history of the Weston Price Foundation and provides evidence that Weston Price had recommended a vegetarian and dairy diet to his own family members as the healthiest diet. The anti-vegetarian and anti-soy views of the foundation have also been criticized in several publications. Joel Fuhrman MD wrote a series of articles entitled “The truth about the Weston Price Foundation” in which he argues the Foundation is a purveyor of “nutritional myths”, largely because they have failed to update their recommendations in light of contradictory evidence.
The Quackwatch website published an essay by Stephen Barrett MD that says the Weston A. Price Foundation promotes “questionable dietary strategies” and on grounds that the core assumptions of Weston Price’s original work are incorrect and contrary to contemporary medical understanding. The Foundation has written a rebuttal to Barret’s essay.
If nutritional experts can find so many faults with the Weston Price Foundation recommendations I think we have to take them with a pinch of salt.
Hi Albert
I am familiar with these authors you mentioned and have their books, Weston Price, Joel Furhman & John Robbins.
Including Gabriel Cousens, Fred Bisci, Paul Nison etc
Have you read Nutrition & Physical Degeneration? There are some scary pictures in there…but mainly if you eat white bread and white sugar, they call it “white man food”…which the natives traded in for their coconut, and what not….
Would you have any details of civilization that has survived staying vegans in the history of mankind? Not vegetarians, but vegan….
If yes, please flick us a link, I am super interested….as there are many who cannot tolerate dairy, goats milk, eggs etc which are sometimes permitted in the fashionable modern vegetarian diet…
And also if a vegan can survive without B12 intake in a pill form?
Thank you….
For some reason the link the the blog post on Snyder’s essay didn’t show up. Here it is in case of interest:
http://caffeinatedcalm.blogspot.com/2011/12/practice-of-wild.html
Thanks Ajahn Sujato for the very interesting article. Are the monks and nuns in your Santi Monastery allowed to eat meat?
Simon
Hi Simon,
We generally have a policy of being vegetarian, but there is no prohibition. Occasionally – maybe once a year – someone brings meat or fish for dana, and if someone wants to eat it they can. To be honest, I don’t even know whether our website says that we are vegetarian. Let me check – no, I can’t see anything. We were established down the road from Sunnataram, which is a vegetarian Thai monastery. So most people typically just bring vegetarian anyway.
“There are some things that the scriptures simply get wrong. The Suttas make no critique of slavery, for example, and yet for us this is one of the most heinous of all crimes.”
I thought slavery was one of the 5 occupations which was forbidden by the Buddha? along with selling poison, weapons, drugs and i forget the last one.
Hi Lars,
Yes, trading in humans is wrong livelihood; and trading in meat is too. But this applies to those making a living from it, rather than the consumer. I am not aware of anywhere that the Buddha is recorded as saying that it was wrong to have slaves, although he did say that one should treat them humanely. The monastics are routinely prohibited from having slaves, although there are one or two places in the Pali Vinaya, and many elsewhere, that suggest that monastics had slaves.
Dearest Bhante,
Coming from an Ayurvedic background, the teachings I learnt are that it is considered karmically wrong to eat meat unless the intake is to preserve one’s life….what are your thoughts on this? I read that was the case
of the Dalai Lama….
While not direct to vegetarianism, I am also concerned about all the plastic we used during fund raising food fairs which contribute towards detriment of environment…cos anything that affects the environment affects all beings in the end..
How can we help? I am all for vegetarianism and minimal meat consumption…..
Hi jacquie,
Well, clearly if there is a genuine medical need to eat meat, this changes the ethical balance. I am not really convinced that meat-eating is really necessary, but if it is, then it provides a much stronger argument for eating it. It would simply be a borderline case. I would hesitate to say it is okay, but I would equally hesitate to criticize anyone for doing it. In any case, if the only meat eaten was the meat that was necessary for living, then the problem would be far smaller than today.
This relates to the fascinating question of the relation between hunter-gatherer people and meat. It was genuinely difficult to get sources of protein, and hunting was, in many places, necessary for survival. We all know that the hunters would often apologize to, prey for, or in some other way atone for killing the animal, which they considered to be a brother. It seems, indeed, that the very origins of ritual and sacrifice has deep roots in the need to manage the guilt of killing.
At a conference in Perth in 1984, we had a panel on vegetariansim, which I presented with an Nyoongar elder, Ken Colbung. He was a vegetarian on ethical grounds, as he said that his traditional beliefs treasured all life, and they only killed because they had no other choice. He said that these days there is no need – just buy some veggies! He was critical of young aborigine youths, who believed that they had to kill snakes or other animals to prove how aboriginal they were. He said that such ideas go directly against the traditional ways.
Thank you, Bhante, for your thoughts. Even as vegetarian, sometimes moral issue arises. Have you heard much of monoculture? Few weeks ago, I sent a canadian site link to a canadian friend, it has many wonderful legume recipes which I just love, beans, beans, beans
but my canadian friend whose partner is also vegan replied, great recipe but the promotors behind ‘eat more beans’ are avocating monoculture, which apparently is a deadly practise to many species, so i was informed….well, that kind of stop me going to my local continental shop where i get kilos of variety beans for under $5.00 per kg….i went to get organic beans but the price jumped up almost 3-5 times and suddenly a lot less variety & food on the dining table but once one has knowledge of what is not right, one has to do what is right….that is the bottom line of self awareness……
I’m not sure that beans are especially heinous as a monoculture crop; in organic farming beans are typically grown among or cycled with grains in order to replenish nitrogen. Also, beans are typically hardy, so require relatively little pesticides. But this is all 20+ year old knowledge, so please feel free to correct me…
Dearest Bhante, I didnt know either re beans and monoculture, hence I was shocked & dismayed…..i will investigate further, maybe there is more to going on than we know…i sure love my beans of all sort.
Thank you Bhante for the interesting reflections.
I would agree that the choice of vegetarianism is perhaps the most simple and practical expression of moral practice that a lay person can make.
I adopted the practice very happily after doing a meditation course some 20 years ago. To live, consciously avoiding the taking of life, and doing nothing to encourage others to take life, is a wonderful thing.
At the end of the day, arguments against vegetarianism tend to be based on an inability to recognize that animals dread suffering and death as much as we do, or out of a total disregard for the feelings of animals, under the influence of an overwhelming attachment to the flavor of meat. One infuriating expression of this insensitivity is when people defend the killing of animals with the argument that vegetarians murder vegetables. This line of reasoning seems to demonstrate a desperate guilt as well as a stunning disconnect from the evident reality of suffering as a fact of sentient life.
Vegetarianism can be regarded as an advanced way of practicing the first precept. Not only do you not break the first precept yourself, but you also do all that you reasonably can to not assist or encourage others to break it, and you avoid even condoning the breaking of the precept by anyone else. This is what S.N. Goenka refers to as “three-dimensional sila.”
More importantly, if one can appreciate the dire consequences to someone who breaks the first precept, then not eating meat is also an attempt to prevent this terrible suffering. That is, it is as much to prevent the suffering of the killer as that of the killed, which, after all, is more substantial in the grand scheme of things. I would say that this is the highest rationale for being a vegetarian, and this is the reason I give if someone asks why I am a vegetarian (maybe also because this answer offers more insight into the Buddha’s teachings).
Buddha’s attitude to vegetarianism was eminently practical if one considers that at the time he lived vegetarianism was far less widespread and accepted than it was today. As far as I understand, it was in large part the influence of Buddha’s teachings through the centuries that accounts for the widespread diffusion of vegetarianism that we see in India today. That is, vegetarianism took root gradually from the understanding that any killing of animals is harmful to oneself, i.e., through the teaching of the first precept.
The five precepts are not primarily about laying down an absolute moral code or promoting compassion, but rather to provide the human mind with a sufficiently solid foundation to achieve concentration, insight, and liberation.
In his teachings Buddha was not speaking to the masses, as a social reformer, but rather to people as individuals, urging them to practice Dhamma, starting with the five precepts and leading progressively to greater purification of the mind.
If Buddha did not deal much or directly with compassion and social justice it was because he knew these to be possible only through the purification and liberation of individual minds, or because he knew such ideals to be unattainable in view of the nature of the universe. The first precept is just a simple, basic principle essential to enabling the individual to embark on cultivating the mind.
Buddha probably also reasoned that proscribing meat would have been unnecessarily restrictive and counterproductive. If most households cooked meat at the time, forbidding monks to eat meat would have prevented many householders from making merit and hearing the Dhamma, perhaps also unnecessarily alienating them from the teachings.
I don’t think it is any blemish on the Buddha-Dhamma, the Buddha’s teaching, that it does not take a more comprehensive or aggressive position on vegetarianism. It is not the responsibility of the Dhamma to spell out how each and every person must conduct every aspect of their lives. Nonetheless, any reasonable person reflecting seriously on the implications of the first precept and the law of kamma ought to be inspired to live as a vegetarian. Similarly, one would conclude that any enlightened society ought to be largely vegetarian. In this sense, the fact that the two countries that arguably have the strongest claim to embracing the true teachings of the Buddha — Burma and Thailand — fall so short on this measure reflects very poorly on them, in my view.
Very best to all,
Gulab
Dear Gulab,
Thanks for this thoughtful reflection. Just one point: you say that it was the Buddhist ethic that lead to the increase of vegetarianism in India. I agree, it certainly does seem to be so. The edicts of Ashoka are important in this regard, although he stops short of advocating full vegetarianism. I have never seen a careful study of this issue, and I suspect we may find that certain of the differences between the Mahayana and Theravada views on vegetarianism will make more sense when seen in the broader historical context.
Strict Brahmins and yogis are generally vegetarians…unless they diverted. Especially, if you go up north to the town of Rishikesh, back few years, you wont even see an egg on sale…
Meat is considered tamasic and its consumption, said to reduce love & compassion. Said also, what we consume, we take on its consciousness..and that includes all impressions, what we see, we must digest…..
Sujato
While I appreciate your efforts in supporting women the
115 Bahudhatuka Sutta
The many kinds of Elements
15. clearly states:
he understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman could be an Accomplished One, aFully Enlightened One, there is not such possibiliy” etc etc
it goes on to claim women cannot be monarchs etc and in a previous chapter that a man on seeing a women develops lust (therefore that is apparently her fault) and that women from then on are referred to as and should be referred to as “sharks”
… so my question is what do Buddhist men want from women…why if they believe in the fact they are superior, that a women would have to be reborn as a man before becoming enlightened should women bother with Buddhism?
What do Buddhist men want from women, there money, to use their bodies as tantic sex objects, servants?
I don’t get it ….if the suttas state women cannot be enlightened and are inferior to men and even Nuns at Ajahn Brahms monestry think they are inferior to men then why encourage women and why do women bother?
Do you men need female bodies as sex objects, money, servants and they consider that encourageing women around Buddhism even though they believe them inferior that it is good for women because they can create merit?
Or.. is Bhikkhu Bodhi just and old fashioned sexist and interprets the suttas through he eyes of such a man?
Wouldn’t women just be better having a bit of understanding of not having greed, hatred and delusion and getting on with having lives and then just being reborn as men in the next life and joining a monestry then.
What do Buddhist men want from women exactly I mean why not just ban women from monestries completely and men can then get on with getting enlightened and if it is true at least they will be upholding their precepts of “not lieing (to women) if it seems this is what the Buddha taught?
This is a serious quesiton and I would appreciate it if you could answer this post rather than deleting it?
And, mcd, i would appreciate it if you would write your comments without insulting or abusing anyone. All you had to ask was, what is the deal with this passage from the Bahudhatuka Sutta? And if you were to do so, I would say, Ven Analayo has shown that it is clearly a late, inauthentic addition. You can read his essay here.
Ahjan Sujato,
Thank you for that. Possibly I will stop abusing and insulting when Buddhist stop writing texts that abuse and insult women….I think it is called kamma.
Regards and best wishes
Thank you Bhante.
This is the most straight forward and clear cut analysis of this topic that I have ever read.
Bankei
Hello Bhante,
This is simply Mara’s argument, and as agents of Mara go, with your manipulation of emotions through your cutzy cuddly animal images worthy of Madison avenue or Nazi propagandists, you are doing a splendid job here for the Evil One in directing people’s attention to worldly concerns, wrongfully creating guilty feelings, and disparaging the Dhamma as taught in the process.
A Buddhist per the pursuit of the Buddha’s path is not someone out to change the world. The Buddha doesn’t mess with slavery, doesn’t mess with wars, unequal treatment based on race or gender and countless other matters except in-so-far as such issues arise as a matter of the conduct of the individual where the goal is concerned. It’s: “A man should not sell himself into slavery,” not “There should be no slavery.” The one is dealing with what one may deal with, the other what is out of one’s control. It’s “Women are as capable of understanding Dhamma as men,” not “Women should be treated as the equals of men.” It’s “There is no difference in the nature of men of differing birth or color or race,” not “All men should be treated in the same way regardless of birth or color or race.” Deal with what is possible because it is under your control, not what your assumption that you see it all and know what is best for all tells you is right. Beings have their kamma to live out. Sometimes that happens in front of our eyes. Pay heed, don’t get angry about it.
What is not being seen here is that this effort to spare pain to one set of beings is causing by it’s poorly constructed methodology pain to another set. This is setting yourself on fire to stop war. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. An act of extreme anger. And it stirs up anger at a group with a different point of view. This is not the way. Mind your own business and teach Dhamma. Those capable of the practice who have eyes to see will follow. Those who are blind will not follow whatever you say and you will have wasted your efforts while causing unpleasantness.
The futility trying to change the world is pointed out again and again in the suttas with similes such as the man who tries to stomp out a pile of shit; spitting on it, kicking it, sitting on it, pissing on it, only to end being covered in shit himself. Or with the simile of the man trying to empty the ocean with a sieve.
The issue that makes a Buddhist a Buddhist is not what ‘everyone’ should do to make the world a better place, it is what the individual striving after the goal of the Buddhist system should do in order to attain it’s goals.
This is the issue of ‘is the Arahant being selfish by attaining the goal rather than staying back and teaching.’ Absolutely wrongheaded. The best teaching is by example. The other way around is the man who smokes who tells everyone he can quit any time. Be a good example; let go trying to mind everyone else’s business.
The bhikkhu should eat what is put in his bowl for two reasons: to curtail his own wanting and to benefit the giver. Exceptions are made with regard to certain things like meat known to have been killed specifically for a bhikkhu, or by a bhikkhu, or upon request by a bhikkhu because these conditions carry bad kamma with them and it is escape from kamma that is the goal.
The rules reflect the kamma.
Ethics and kamma are two different things. Ethics (and morality) are based on a point of view ‘ditthi’. Kamma is a law of physics. It works a certain way whatever you believe.
Buddhist ethics are based on a goal proceeding from a ‘ditthi’ based kamma.
The goal for the Buddhist is the escape from pain by individuals not the creation of a pain-free world.
The escape from pain is seen in the ending of the source of pain which is in the kammic acts of an individual that follow on wanting. Pain is a thing I can stop in me, not in you.
There is no kammic consequence from eating the meat of an already dead animal for sale in the supermarket, there is pain in causing people guilty feelings concerning what does not cause guilt and misguiding them on the intent of the Buddha’s Dhamma. Directing people’s attention to concern about market demand for meat is directing people’s attention to an issue that does not bring them closer to the goal. It’s wasting their time. Wasting people’s time is causing them pain.
However even if one were to ignore the fact that this discussion directs the reader’s attention to an irrelevant worldly issue, the methodology is not optimal for the suggested goal.
The argument is always made that it is the ‘demand’ that is causing the butcher to kill. The reality is that it is the butcher who kills and presents meat for sale that creates the demand. Time and again studies of inflation have shown that when the price of a cut of meat rises above a certain acceptable level, the people switch to a less expensive cut. The butcher then lowers the price to increase demand. The same principle holds for switching from meat to tofu and back.
Which is greater? The number of people eating meat, or the number of people killing creatures to supply meat for people to eat?
There would be a greater probability of success in the mission you profess if your effort were directed at the attempt to get those few who kill to abstain from killing than to get those many who simply purchase the meat of previously killed animals to stop what is for them a pleasurable, life-sustaining, and harmless activity.
Teaching that it is killing that is the unskillful kammic act not eating meat would be teaching this lesson properly. And hey! Look! That’s what the Buddha teaches.
Hi Obo,
Thanks for your contribution. You managed to break Godwin’s law in your very first sentence, so I think we can safely agree that there’s little that we will agree on.
Hello
obo: “This is simply Mara’s argument, and as agents of Mara go, with your manipulation of emotions through your cutzy cuddly animal images worthy of Madison avenue or Nazi propagandists, you are doing a splendid job here for the Evil One in directing people’s attention to worldly concerns, wrongfully creating guilty feelings, and disparaging the Dhamma as taught in the process.”
Actually worldly concers has always be the core and value of the dhamma. The suffering of existence is not a static first cause to promote dhamma it is the very heart of why the dhamma should exist in the first place. I must say you are a word juggling dellusionist. You are running ahead of something that should come first.
obo:”A Buddhist per the pursuit of the Buddha’s path is not someone out to change the world. The Buddha doesn’t mess with slavery, doesn’t mess with wars, unequal treatment based on race or gender and countless other matters except in-so-far as such issues arise as a matter of the conduct of the individual where the goal is concerned. It’s: “A man should not sell himself into slavery,” not “There should be no slavery.” The one is dealing with what one may deal with, the other what is out of one’s control. It’s “Women are as capable of understanding Dhamma as men,” not
“Women should be treated as the equals of men.” It’s “There is no difference in the nature of men of differing birth or color or race,” not “All men should be treated in the same way regardless of birth or color or race.” Deal with what is possible because it is under your control, not what your assumption that you see it all and know what is best for all tells you is right. Beings have their kamma to live out. Sometimes that happens in front of our eyes. Pay heed, don’t get angry about it.”
Actually this has never been the dhamma. Again you do not understand that the dhamma is not some blunt object. It should puncture the vast layer of insanity that constitutes existence in order to be effective. thats why it’s so important to take refuge in the buddha, he becomes a symbol of plain human agony. A man stepping out of this crazy riddle with all his emotions and yes even disgust to search for an answer, a gate to sanity.
obo:”What is not being seen here is that this effort to spare pain to one set of beings is causing by it’s poorly constructed methodology pain to another set. This is setting yourself on fire to stop war. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. An act of extreme anger. And it stirs up anger at a group with a different point of view. This is not the way. Mind your own business and teach Dhamma. Those capable of the practice who have eyes to see will follow. Those who are blind will not follow whatever you say and you will have wasted your efforts while causing unpleasantness.”
Actually this is a Maran argument par excellence! Since you will not be aware of anyones blindness befor uttering the path that is good in the begining, in the middle and in the end there is no point to your malicious languistic construction. Essentially the Buddha should not have uttered a word in your view. uncovering unwholesome acts has nothing to do with anger or as you maran tongue expresses it EXTREME ANGER. It has to do with the nature of the Buddha wich is loving kindness. The Buddha in his great wisdom extends a hand.
obo:”The futility trying to change the world is pointed out again and again in the suttas with similes such as the man who tries to stomp out a pile of shit; spitting on it, kicking it, sitting on it, pissing on it, only to end being covered in shit himself. Or with the simile of the man trying to empty the ocean with a sieve.”
Actually your understanding is a mispresentation of the matter. This is talking about the mechanics of samsara not about activating wholesome components wich is the crux of the matter. your view is like the deluded monks meditating around the sick monk lying in his own filth while Ananda and the Buddha nursed him.
obo:”The issue that makes a Buddhist a Buddhist is not what ‘everyone’ should do to make the world a better place, it is what the individual striving after the goal of the Buddhist system should do in order to attain it’s goals.”
Actually it is a concern about existence. This is intrinsically intertwined with the goal of the individual wich can’t be divided. Don’t be deluded by self, The Buddha’s full enlightenement was actualized with the uttering of ” open is the gate to the deathless for everyone that has ears”
obo:”This is the issue of ‘is the Arahant being selfish by attaining the goal rather than staying back and teaching.’ Absolutely wrongheaded. The best teaching is by example. The other way around is the man who smokes who tells everyone he can quit any time. Be a good example; let go trying to mind everyone else’s business.”
The essence of the buddha is loving kindness, his walking the indian continent for decades is an outcome of his enlightenment. Never ever was his message to let everyone mind his own business. Teacher of humans and devas, with compassion for the world.
obo:”The bhikkhu should eat what is put in his bowl for two reasons: to curtail his own wanting and to benefit the giver. Exceptions are made with regard to certain things like meat known to have been killed specifically for a bhikkhu, or by a bhikkhu, or upon request by a bhikkhu because these conditions carry bad kamma with them and it is escape from kamma that is the goal.
The rules reflect the kamma.
Ethics and kamma are two different things. Ethics (and morality) are based on a point of view ‘ditthi’. Kamma is a law of physics. It works a certain way whatever you believe.
Buddhist ethics are based on a goal proceeding from a ‘ditthi’ based kamma.
The goal for the Buddhist is the escape from pain by individuals not the creation of a pain-free world”
Nurturing that very painful world would be the obstacle to that escape, the individual has never been apart from that world. Apathy towards this world means that one is deluded by a concept of self since ones escape is based on the very interaction with what makes the individual wich is that very same world.
obo:”The escape from pain is seen in the ending of the source of pain which is in the kammic acts of an individual that follow on wanting. Pain is a thing I can stop in me, not in you.”
O so you didn’t need The Buddha? Believe it or not you stopping that pain is dependent on the effective tools another human being provided, his name was Gotama Buddha. Sure you are the one that needs to use them on yourself but without the movement of gotama’s tongue you would play around in suffering “only to end being covered in shit”
obo:”There is no kammic consequence from eating the meat of an already dead animal for sale in the supermarket, there is pain in causing people guilty feelings concerning what does not cause guilt and misguiding them on the intent of the Buddha’s Dhamma. Directing people’s attention to concern about market demand for meat is directing people’s attention to an issue that does not bring them closer to the goal. It’s wasting their time. Wasting people’s time is causing them pain.”
You care about wasting their time but not about the the hellbound existence the butcher is going to undergo by killing the animals you pay for. Very logical. This is so deluded it is self apologeticism to the max.
obo”However even if one were to ignore the fact that this discussion directs the reader’s attention to an irrelevant worldly issue, the methodology is not optimal for the suggested goal.”
Irrevelant worldly issue, i suffer you suffer, i don’t know why The Buddha bothered about suffering! It’s all so irrelevant! Afterall suffering is very worldly.
”The argument is always made that it is the ‘demand’ that is causing the butcher to kill. The reality is that it is the butcher who kills and presents meat for sale that creates the demand. Time and again studies of inflation have shown that when the price of a cut of meat rises above a certain acceptable level, the people switch to a less expensive cut. The butcher then lowers the price to increase demand. The same principle holds for switching from meat to tofu and back.”
What’s this even about? A butcher kills, an animal suffer. This should not be encouraged, these are unwholesome acts. As a buddhist one should not partake in this system.
If anyone slaughters a living being for sake of the Tathagata or any of his disciples, he thereby creates much demerit in these five instances: When he says: Go and fetch that living sentient being this is the first instance in which he lays up much demerit. When that living being experiences pain and fear on being led along by the neck, this is the second instance in which he lays up much demerit.
When he says: Go and slaughter that living sentient being this is the third instance in which he accumulates much demerit. When that living being experiences pain and panic on being killed, this is the fourth instance in which he lays up much demerit. When he provides the Tathagata or his disciples with such food that is not permitted, which is unsuitable & unacceptable, this is the fifth instance in which he collects much demerit.
Anyone who slaughters a living being for sake of the Tathagata or any of his disciples creates future disadvantage on these five occasions…
Buying; is saying go and fetch living beings to kill them for food. We have knowledge about the system. Having knowledge colors our intention. Spin words and uphold your static indifferent view. That is not the dhamma. It is a disgusting self apologetic system that caters to your senses and greed. It thickens your delusion. The buddha and the bhikkhus ate meat to sustain he dhamma. This means:
When it is not seen, not heard, and not suspected, that the living being has been killed for sake of the bhikkhu, I say: Meat may be eaten on these three occasions.
Every kind of meat we as moder people buy has been seen to be killed, heard to be killed and verified to have been killed for our overfed guts.
obo: “Which is greater? The number of people eating meat, or the number of people killing creatures to supply meat for people to eat?”
inconsequentual question! Since this whole mass of suffering is creating bad kamma. The killers doing the killing, the buyers doing the buying by intentionally buying meat that has an clearly UNVEILED amount of suffering attached to it.
obo:”There would be a greater probability of success in the mission you profess if your effort were directed at the attempt to get those few who kill to abstain from killing than to get those many who simply purchase the meat of previously killed animals to stop what is for them a pleasurable, life-sustaining, and harmless activity.”
Pleasurable in pleasing the senses; discouraged by The Buddha.
Life-sustaining; Are you kidding me?
Harmless activity: like going to a prostitute brought here by mob bound human traficking (hey i didn’t brought here here i’m just having pleasure). Buying garbage toys made by child slave labor (hey i did not enslave them i’m just buying them for my pleasure).
Hey why not go to a more extreme example firmly related to the issue in hand. If you liked the look of human skulls would you buy them if they were created by chopping of the heads of enslaved people? Well i don’t need to ask your argumentation already gives the answer.
If the dhamma is or was ever like this it would be morally corrupt but lucky for us the dhamma was never like this.
obo:”Teaching that it is killing that is the unskillful kammic act not eating meat would be teaching this lesson properly. And hey! Look! That’s what the Buddha teaches.”
No the buddha thaught that the direct blank act of eating meat wasn’t unskillful, but not the intentional act of supporting a whole mass of suffering, like the bio- insustry.
I wish to you a whole lot of wisdom, you clearly need it.
.
Hi Obo,
Interesting comments…would have appreciated if the following points are clarified.
>with your manipulation of emotions through your cutzy cuddly animal images worthy of Madison >avenue or Nazi propagandists,
Did this article stirr up YOUR emotions? and if so, why?
> The Buddha doesn’t mess with slavery, doesn’t mess with wars, unequal treatment based on >race or gender and countless other matters except in-so-far as such issues arise as a matter of >the conduct of the individual where the goal is concerned.
If one relies on the scriptures, the Buddha in fact did mess with wars (between Sakyas and Koliyas), did try to stop animal sacrifices, did speak against discrimination on the basis of caste (check Dhammapada) and guess what, he was perhaps the first spiritual master to allow women (not just a single woman!) into his order. I find it hard to gloss over these facts.
>Pay heed, don’t get angry about it.
Absolutely right here. Pay heed to the fact that our culinery delights are causing tremendous suffering and do not get angy when this is pointed out.
>What is not being seen here is that this effort to spare pain to one set of beings is causing by it’s >poorly constructed methodology pain to another set.
This statement is a give away! Of course, it is a big sacrifice to let go of the taste of meat in what we consume and it does cause pain to let go of that craving. No one disagrees here. But the question we need to ask is can we just let go of this craving for the taste of meat so that some animals can be spared of slaughter?
>The futility trying to change the world is pointed out again and again in the suttas with similes >such as the man who tries to stomp out a pile of shit; spitting on it, kicking it, sitting on it, pissing >on it, only to end being covered in shit himself.
I am not sure who is ‘kicking the shit’ here!
>Be a good example; let go trying to mind everyone else’s business.
Well, you are not setting a great example here either
>The bhikkhu should eat what is put in his bowl for two reasons:
I did not get the impression that Bhante Sujato was proposing a rewrite of vinaya rules…not sure how you caught up on this.
>Kamma is a law of physics.
You are on very shaky grounds here…If I were you I wouldn’t repeat this at a scientific forum although you are probably safe here!
>The goal for the Buddhist is the escape from pain by individuals not the creation of a pain-free >world.
Yeap…who cares about this world as long as my goal can be achieved? For some reason, I did not think that the Buddha taught us to consider us separate from this world – but hey, it is just me, and perhaps you may be right on this….
> Pain is a thing I can stop in me, not in you.
Quite right…but there are things that we can do to alleviate pain in others. Otherwise, why bother with healthcare which eats up a huge percentage of our GDP? Perhaps it is a good thing that our politicians are not Buddhist otherwise they will use this as an argument to eliminate the healthcare system!
> there is pain in causing people guilty feelings
Quite agree. There is no point in feeling guilty about eating meat. If this is causing guilt ‘feed the man meat’ is the right slogan for you. One should only give up eating meat when one feels that it is the right thing to do just like any other action like smoking or drinking.
>However even if one were to ignore the fact that this discussion directs the reader’s attention to >an irrelevant worldly issue, the methodology is not optimal for the suggested goal.
So, what is the optimal methodology?
>The argument is always made that it is the ‘demand’ that is causing the butcher to kill. The >reality is that it is the butcher who kills and presents meat for sale that creates the demand.
Now…even Adam Smith would have got very upset about this great revelation about economics! Unfortunately, this goes right against all your previous arguments…so, what is outside oneself is what creates the demand?
>Which is greater? The number of people eating meat, or the number of people killing creatures >to supply meat for people to eat?
Not sure but since you appear to be interested in statistics I can to tell you that in 2008, in the US alone, the number of cattle, pigs, chicken, turkey, lamb (excluding fish) slaughtered for local consumption was over 35 billion – an impressive figure, isn’t it?
>There would be a greater probability of success in the mission you profess if your effort were >directed at the attempt to get those few who kill to abstain from killing than to get those many >who simply purchase the meat of previously killed animals to stop what is for them a >pleasurable, life-sustaining, and harmless activity.
Yes…Bhante, go convert thos nasty butchers. They make us look pretty bad and they are the real badies, let us continue our harmless culinery delights!!
Great article!
Thank you for this article Bhante.
It seems to me that the intention for causing no harm would also lead to not eating dairy products.
It may be a little confronting, but anyone devoted to a more compassionate world can find it in their heart to consider the impact of their actions.
I quote here from http://www.idausa.org/
”
If you want to stop using the animal products which cause the most suffering, you might want to consider eliminating dairy and eggs first. The misery that female cows endure is arguably worse than that of their brothers slaughtered for beef. Dairy facilities are gigantic machine-filled building, more like a factory than a farm. During the milking process, if the machines are not properly maintained, they can send a painful electric shocks though the udder several times a day. These animals are treated harshly, with no room for sensitivity to their comfort or simple needs. All these Mom’s are either pregnant or lactating, yet their babies are nowhere to be seen.
Like all mammals, female cows only lactate when pregnant. To maximize milk production, dairy cows are kept pregnant their entire short life. Each year, she will be artificially inseminated [while restrained on a rack] or with the farmer’s arm. A cow’s natural life span is about 20 years. In this highly intensive farming, however, the stress on her body will diminish her milk output after about 3 years. She is then what the industry terms “dried up.” It is more lucrative to send her to slaughter and replace her. Her body will be sold as ground beef.
To insure the highest volume of milk, the calf is taken away from her immediately after birth. Even in seemingly “humane” dairy production, to maintain a profit, cows are sent to slaughter and the calves taken away. This is also to avoid the “mother/calf” bonding. Mother cows have been known to break down the stall in an attempt to find their offspring.
Imagine for a moment being kept pregnant every year of your life, just to have every baby taken away from you and your milk pumped into machines. What happens to these millions of baby cows? A female calf will follow in her mother’s hoof-prints, yet she will never know her mother or suckle her milk, being raised on a bottle formula. But what of the males?
A male calf born to a dairy cow is the wrong breed to profitably be raised for beef. His fate, unfortunately, is much worse. Veal is the soft, pale, anemic flesh of a calf. Veal calves are kept inside in a crate barely bigger than themselves. Chained at the neck, they can’t even turn around. They are fed a liquid diet deficient in iron, so their muscles don’t develop properly. These babies never see their 1st birthday. Many people recognize the cruelty in raising veal and will not eat it, yet are unaware of the intimate connection between the dairy and veal industries. Supporting one supports the other.
”
Can I hear your thoughts Bhante?
Hi Frazer,
I agree, the suffering involved in dairy and eggs is often hardly different from that in producing meat. The difference, of course, is that eggs and dairy do not necessarily involve killing the animal. One could argue whether traditional means of egg and dairy farming are cruel, although there is no doubt that most modern methods are.
For these reasons I was a vegan for many years, and I think its a good practice.
Ethically, there is the ‘slippery slope’ problem, which is discussed quite a lot within vegan circles. I think we have to draw a line somewhere, and the exact boundaries will always be to some extent arbitrary.
I drink and eat dairy and egg products that a produced as ethically as possible, organic milk, free range hormone free eggs. I was vegan for awhile but was unable to get sufficient protein or B-12 in my diet. My body ached because it was literally eating my muscle mass. There is also no natural vegan source of B-12.
Im still vegetarian though.
We do what we can. Many people report similar effects, and it seems to vary a lot between individuals, maybe to do with how the nutrients are absorbed.
Thank you Ajahn Sujato for the reply. I think you made some really good points why Buddhists should be vegetarian and I tend to agree with you. However, it seems to me that the main issue here is whether it should be made compulsory for lay Buddhists, monks and nuns.
In making vegetarian compulsory, it seems that one is using ‘force’ and this perhaps was one of the reasons why Buddha did not want to make it compulsory?
As a general rule, I don’t think that something should be prohibited just because it is unethical. There are plenty of things that the Buddha encouraged, but didn’t make rules about.
The wider issue is that in this case it is not simply a matter of personal ethics, like say drugs or sexual behavior, but the victims of the animal trade are voiceless and powerless. For this reason I do think that it would be better to make animal husbandry of all sorts illegal, excepting perhaps some marginal cases like when someone has a genuine health need. But this is just fantasy. As a matter of practical ethics, I think becoming vegetarian/vegan is one of the most effective things to do.
Simon, I think the main reason why this issue polarizes people is because of the attempts to enforce a particular rule. This scares off many people which is unfortunate as most ordinary people will consider the facts and do what they can do to alleviate misery caused by them. In this regard, this is not dissimilar to the 5 precepts – there is no hard and fast rule but the realisation that if you break them you end up causing misery to yourself and perhaps others.
I feel that Buddhists, especially the lay Buddhists, should take the lead and promote (but not enforce) vegetarianism to alleviate (it would be impossible to eliminate) suffering of animals. Essentially, the rule of non-violence (whether towards animals or opponents of vegetarianism) should always be maintained.
Thanks Bhante, I really appreciate more discussion of this issue. I thought eating meat was wrong for years, but I kept doing it. Partly it was because of sort-of liking the taste of meat, but mostly just because of laziness and denial. I think the more that people get vegetarianism (gently) shoved in their faces, the harder it is to avoid. Raising the discussion again and again will help those people who, like me, wanted to be vegetarian but were too lazy to make the change. Thanks heaps.
Thanks Bhante, I also appreciate this discussion.
I’m not quite a certain as you are about this issue but I do agree that morality is wider than karma and that this must be kept in mind when trying to determine how we act. I may speak with no intent to harm, but if my speech is not skillful it may still cause harm and must be avoided.
Modern factory (non-animal) farming is tremendously damaging to the environment, not just factory animal “husbandry”. Factory farmers intentionally kill billions of sentient beings (insects, snakes, birds, rodents, etc.) and millions more sentient beings are killed as side-effects (pollution in water, algae blooms killing fish, pesticides in the environment, etc.). Lets not even get into Chinese soy (plant protein) farming which includes purchasing millions of acres of farmland in South America and elsewhere and converting that land from small farms to huge factory farms. Thus displacing and disenfranchising people and creating immense destruction to the social and physical environments.
It is an equally accurate statement to say that modern non-animal farming is much crueler to the world than the farming in the Buddha’s time.
You’re quite right, Alan, thanks.
While we are talking of industrial production of crops using large mechanised machines, mass application of fertilisers, pesticides and herbicides are sprayed on crops and in so doing countless animals lower in the food chain are killed. Yet these crops such as corn, soy beans and other grains (mainly GM so that they can withstand high concentrations of herbicides and pesticides) are primarily used to feed factory farmed pigs, cows and chickens so that they can be killed for human consumption.
Large tracts of the Amazon have been cleared to grow soy beans to feed cattle so as to meet the demand for hamburgers in developed countries. All this is done to meet the insatiable demand for meat and dairy products. 90% of the American corn crop ends up as animal feed.
China is rapidly industrialising and demand for meat and dairy is rising exponentially. All its arable land is already utilised so to meet that demand virgin forest is destroyed in developing countries to grow crops to feed animals destined for the dinner plate.
We can see how wasteful it is to get our protein from animals instead of plants as animals are one tenth as efficient as plants in producing protein. Meat production is highly energy, water and soil intensive and polluting from animal waste besides being cruel and inhumane to our fellow sentient beings suffering in factory farms.
And yes I’m all for photos of insects, invertebrates, amphibians, reptiles, fish, birds, mammals (cute and ugly) as well as inside factory farms and slaughter houses to be posted here. That may open our eyes to what goes on behind closed doors to animals.
Hmmm, really, a majority of grains etc. go to feed animals…hmmm, worth some further research but hmmm.
I don’t think us humans are quite so off the hook as assuming industrial farming is mainly used to feed animals which are then killed to feed those people who eat meat. I think a lot of it goes directly into our human food chain.
Here is what I got from http://www.agron.iastate.edu/courses/agron212/Readings/Soy_history.htm
”
The majority of the soybean crop is processed into oil and meal. Oil extracted from soybeans is made into shortening, margarine, cooking oil, and salad dressings. Soybeans account for 80 percent or more of the edible fats and oils consumed in the United States. Soy oil is also used in industrial paint, varnishes, caulking compounds, linoleum, printing inks, and other products. Development efforts in recent years have resulted in several soy oil-based lubricant and fuel products that replace non-renewable petroleum products.
The high protein meal remaining after extraction can be processed into soybean flour for human food or incorporated into animal feed. Soybean protein helps balance the nutrient deficiencies of such grains as corn and wheat, which are low in the important amino acids, lysine and tryptophan.
“
“China is rapidly industrialising and demand for meat and dairy is rising exponentially. All its arable land is already utilised so to meet that demand virgin forest is destroyed in developing countries to grow crops to feed animals destined for the dinner plate”
China is apparently buying up vast areas of farming land in Australia and probably other countries like America and in doing so apparently wages will decrease as they bring in their own poorly paid overwork people to do this work.
Apparently Governments are just taking the money without any real concern over this and do not even know how much of this country they actually own.
As far as I know China’s environmental concerns and their respect for animals is very low.
Do they still have the practise of cutting off the tops of the heads of live monkeys in expensive restaurants and eating the brains? – great entertainment for diners..not.
P.S. Bhante, how about some cute pictures of insects, snakes, and a rat or two
Or a few thousand wriggling sardines in a net slowly suffocating (eventually to boiled down into fish oil capsules bound for vegan bathroom shelves)
As well as two metre tall corn stalks, wildly sprouting carrot greens and cone laden pine trees. Non-inclusiveness, selective sentience, based on cuddlyness and anthropomorphic critera seems to be a flaw in the arument here?
Thank you for a great article.
My friend and I (we are both Buddhists) got into an argument over karma/moral aspects of eating meat the other day. My friend eats a little bit of meat every once in a while (fish etc. more often). Me, on the other-hand, eat quite a bit more meat (beef, bacon/pork, fish etc.) than him, and I don’t see myself stopping anytime soon.
I however think that, if such a thing as good/bad karma exists, then each time a person eats meat they acquire more bad karma on to themselves. My friend disagreed and brought up points such as: “you never had the intention of killing the animal” or “you didn’t physically kill the animal yourself” or “that monks can eat meat as long as the animal was NOT specifically killed for them (for their dana)” etc. And therefore, you don’t get bad karma… i.e. your not going to hell for eating meat.
My point was that, the butcher cannot be the only person with bad karma because, by me buying a pound/kg of beef, I am “telling” the butcher it’s OK to kill. I see it as a matter of supply and demand: Because of my demand/desire for meat I buy it at the grocery-store, the grocery-store in turn orders more meat from the butcher, and the butcher kills another animal (be it cow, pig, fish etc.).
My friend’s argument seemed like a cop-out. I seems to me that the points he brought up are a way for people to ease their (guilty) conscious: i.e “I never killed the animal, therefore I don’t incur any bad karma.”
If a person wants to be a vegetarian/vegan/carnivore, that’s up to them. However, people should recognize that by eating meat that they are contributing towards the death of an animal (and future animals through their demand).
Please let me know if my argument is a legitimate one and if it’s valid or not.
Thank you ahead of time.
Hi Oddjob,
The debate with your friend echoes many discussions on this issue that have been held in the Buddhist tradition. As I explained in the article, I don’t think eating meat is ‘bad kamma’, but that it has unintentional harmful effects. The Buddhist tradition is a little uncomfortable with the question of ‘buying’, as selling meat is wrong livelihood, but buying in not against the precepts. In traditional societies to sell meat would have involved killing or ordering others to kill, whereas today it involves making orders with a wholesaler.
The whole process has become more distant, more abstract, so that the ethical responsibility is harder to pin down. This is why some, most famously Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg, take the opposite line, that it is only okay to eat animals you have killed yourself, as only then do you take full responsibility for what you have done. And while it does not justify the killing, there is something noble in that idea.
But even when buying meat, although you are clearly creating indirect demand for the death of animals, I can’t see that it is bad kamma, as there is no intention to harm. Ask yourself: would I still buy this meat if it was grown in a petri dish? (Leaving aside concerns about genetic modification and frankenfoods). If the answer is yes, then the intention to harm doesn’t underlie the action.
This is why I came to the conclusion that this is not bad kamma in the sense that it does not create any bad consequences for the one who does it. But it does create bad consequences for others, and that is good reason not to do it. Ethics, in this sense, is broader than kamma.
Thank you Bhante for starting this discussion and also for entertaining the differing views on the matter.
Mr Frazer Kirkman’s views that the dairy industry causes much more suffering to cows than the beef producing industries has also been my personal view since I became the follower of the Buddha-Dhamma for three years now (…sorry if I’m misquoting Mr Kirkman in any way). For this reason, the choice for me was to be a VEGAN or omnivore, but not a vegetarian – I didn’t see the point in being a vegetarian – consuming dairy products and eggs which cause more suffering than the meat products. This is just my opinion. Living in a large family with limited income, it was not practical to prepare separate VEGAN dishes. So, for now, I have meat and dairy in moderation, with more grains, legumes, and vegetables. I know VEGANISM is not a requirement in the Theravada tradition, but nevertheless agree that it could only enhance ones sense of compassion for living beings. Therefore, veganism is praiseworthy – but it should not be shoved into others faces – to the point of labelling them as “wrongdoers”. As people practice the Dhamma, and with the “gentle” guidance of the monastic order, laypeople will come to know for themselves what is wholesome and what is not.
May all who visit this blog be well, happy, safe, and peacefull.
Not all dairy products and eggs are from ill treated animals, there are products produced from biodynamic farming, which many health conscious consumers buy, even if they do not believe in karma etc. I am not speaking for myself as i am allergic to both. And yes, many vegans struggle. Vegans are those that consume 0 animal products, not even honey. And they do need to take b12…
I read that no civilization has yet to survive being vegans in history….
Meat is a matter of acquired taste, some are born naturally adverse to it…
There is no option to reply at the level required. This is a response to the response to me under your response to my post. If that is supposed to be the end of the discussion, so be it.
Maybe this goes nowhere. I am, as an exercise, even if just for myself, going to deal with this confused man’s response to my post.
quoting obo’s original post: “This is simply Mara’s argument, and as agents of Mara go, with your manipulation of emotions through your cutzy cuddly animal images worthy of Madison avenue or Nazi propagandists, you are doing a splendid job here for the Evil One in directing people’s attention to worldly concerns, wrongfully creating guilty feelings, and disparaging the Dhamma as taught in the process.”
G: Actually worldly concers has always be the core and value of the dhamma. The suffering of existence is not a static first cause to promote dhamma it is the very heart of why the dhamma should exist in the first place. I must say you are a word juggling dellusionist. You are running ahead of something that should come first.
Obo: Actually worldly concerns were not and are not either the core or the value of the Dhamma and the suffering inherent in existence is one of the three basic characteristics of existence giving rise to the Dhamma. You are perhaps confusing the idea that existence is painful with the idea that this pain is a worldly matter. The distinction is that in noting the pain inherent in existence one is not attempting to change anything in that. Worldly matters on the other hand are attempts to change things in the world.
Your second sentence is self-contradictory. It is saying that the suffering of existence is not the first cause giving rise to the Dhamma it is the first cause giving rise to the Dhamma.
I prefer to see me as a word-juggling disillusionist.
I believe you have in your last fallen into the wrong speech and debating error usually phrased: “You have put last what should have been first, put first what should have been put last.” You can say that but you have not shown the truth of that statement.
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “A Buddhist per the pursuit of the Buddha’s path is not someone out to change the world. The Buddha doesn’t mess with slavery, doesn’t mess with wars, unequal treatment based on race or gender and countless other matters except in-so-far as such issues arise as a matter of the conduct of the individual where the goal is concerned. It’s: “A man should not sell himself into slavery,” not “There should be no slavery.” The one is dealing with what one may deal with, the other what is out of one’s control. It’s “Women are as capable of understanding Dhamma as men,” not “Women should be treated as the equals of men.” It’s “There is no difference in the nature of men of differing birth or color or race,” not “All men should be treated in the same way regardless of birth or color or race.” Deal with what is possible because it is under your control, not what your assumption that you see it all and know what is best for all tells you is right. Beings have their kamma to live out. Sometimes that happens in front of our eyes. Pay heed, don’t get angry about it.”
G: Actually this has never been the dhamma. Again you do not understand that the dhamma is not some blunt object. It should puncture the vast layer of insanity that constitutes existence in order to be effective. thats why it’s so important to take refuge in the buddha, he becomes a symbol of plain human agony. A man stepping out of this crazy riddle with all his emotions and yes even disgust to search for an answer, a gate to sanity.
obo: Actually this has been and is the Dhamma. I am not some person who has given the Dhamma some quick once-over reading. I have studied the Pali and the translations for some 50 years now and my practice is well rounded, not confined to book knowledge, and I am both familiar with what is said and have the resources to double-check. I do not see where I have understood that the Dhamma is some blunt object previously let alone here. Furthermore I am maintaining that it is far deeper and subtler than you are able to see given your performance with this post.
If you are saying that the Dhamma should paint a picture of the vast layer of insanity that constitutes existence in order to be effective, I couldn’t agree more. From the opening of the Digha Nikaya where the Bhikkhus marvel at the way Gotama has dealt with the diversity of man the reading of the Suttas is the reading of the story of the way a Great mind deals with every sort of madman conceivable. I do not see where anything I have said goes against this in any way.
I also have no argument with your depiction of Gotama departing worldly life to seek an answer.
Nothing of what you have said amounts to an argument rebutting anything I have said in this paragraph.
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “What is not being seen here is that this effort to spare pain to one set of beings is causing by it’s poorly constructed methodology pain to another set. This is setting yourself on fire to stop war. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. An act of extreme anger. And it stirs up anger at a group with a different point of view. This is not the way. Mind your own business and teach Dhamma. Those capable of the practice who have eyes to see will follow. Those who are blind will not follow whatever you say and you will have wasted your efforts while causing unpleasantness.”
G: Actually this is a Maran argument par excellence! Since you will not be aware of anyones blindness befor uttering the path that is good in the begining, in the middle and in the end there is no point to your malicious languistic construction. Essentially the Buddha should not have uttered a word in your view. uncovering unwholesome acts has nothing to do with anger or as you maran tongue expresses it EXTREME ANGER. It has to do with the nature of the Buddha wich is loving kindness. The Buddha in his great wisdom extends a hand.
obo: Actually what I say here has nothing to do with what one knows and sees (and, as an aside, what I would hope you would see here is that I am making an extreme effort to understand your garbled speech and respond to the intent. You have with this post let your anger control your mind and the words are tumbling out of that cracked pot willy-nilly.) Take a look: what I said was that it was the ‘poorly constructed methodology’ of Bhk. Sujato’s effort that was the problem. Not that the issue is not to be spoken of. The point is that in dealing with a perceived problem the solution should be such as does not create even greater problems. And that is not the case in this case and I am showing how it is not the case.
Revealing unwholesome acts is not what I am suggesting is an act of extreme anger. Setting one’s self on fire to protest war is an act of extreme anger. Using a method to eliminate the pain of one group by inflicting pain on another group is clear evidence of anger. The anger has blinded one to adherence to one way of looking at a thing to the disadvantage of another.
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “The futility trying to change the world is pointed out again and again in the suttas with similes such as the man who tries to stomp out a pile of shit; spitting on it, kicking it, sitting on it, pissing on it, only to end being covered in shit himself. Or with the simile of the man trying to empty the ocean with a sieve.”
G: Actually your understanding is a mispresentation of the matter. This is talking about the mechanics of samsara not about activating wholesome components wich is the crux of the matter. your view is like the deluded monks meditating around the sick monk lying in his own filth while Ananda and the Buddha nursed him.
obo: Actually my understanding is one thing and my representation of the matter is another. You do not have access to my understanding. And ACTUALLY I am not misrepresenting the matter at all. These similes are talking about what you call ‘the mechanics of samsara’. Whether or not what Bhk. Sujato proposes is ‘activating wholesome components’ is exactly the matter under discussion. I am saying that his proposal is flawed in multiple ways that anyone with eyes that can see can see the result in being dependent on the muddleheaded, involved in the futile and will end in being covered in shit.
There are these two fools: One who does not take up a burden that befalls him and one who takes up a burden that does not befall him. We are speaking of methodology. There is no issue being taken here with people who wish to become vegetarian. The issue is suggesting that the Dhamma is somehow wrong in not making it a rule. The issue is telling other people what to do which is a presumption that one knows everything about everything. A sick person in one’s family or residence or close proximity is a burden that has befallen one. A sick person one has never heard of or seen is a burden that has not befallen one.
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “The issue that makes a Buddhist a Buddhist is not what ‘everyone’ should do to make the world a better place, it is what the individual striving after the goal of the Buddhist system should do in order to attain it’s goals.”
G: Actually it is a concern about existence. This is intrinsically intertwined with the goal of the individual wich can’t be divided. Don’t be deluded by self, The Buddha’s full enlightenement was actualized with the uttering of ” open is the gate to the deathless for everyone that has ears”
obo: Actually I am very glad to see, looking down, that this is the last time you will be using this word to begin your jumble of words. It was getting almost as tiresome to see as a reference to Nazism in a blog post!
To say that the issue that makes a Buddhist a Buddhist is a concern about existence is to make one of the most fundamental errors being made about what the Buddha taught. Over and over again the point is being made that this Dhamma is not about an argument about existence or non-existence. The Dhamma always and only ever deals with the issue of pain.
To say that making the world a better place is intrinsically intertwined with the goal of the individual and can’t be divided is partly correct, partly not. The very first step taken by the very beginning practitioner, the practice of kindness, generosity, the development of ethical thinking and self control and the setting up of the mind all instantly result in the world becoming a better place. Who is going to argue with that? The issue is setting out to mess with the parts of the world that are not under your control. That can be divided off and should be divided off.
The goal is the escape from kamma. Not the escape from the results of deeds, but from the entire process. Anything one does with intent except in the case of intentionally not-doing, is kamma-making and carries with it an identified-with result. The conclusion is that any kamma that is not the intentional not-doing of things is going to result in being bound up in kamma. In other words, not the way. Nothing that requires that something be ‘done’ other than that which directly results in un-doing is true Dhamma.
“In the same way as the sea always and forever tastes of salt,
This Dhamma always and forever tastes of freedom.
Anything requiring ‘do’ does not taste of freedom.
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “This is the issue of ‘is the Arahant being selfish by attaining the goal rather than staying back and teaching.’ Absolutely wrongheaded. The best teaching is by example. The other way around is the man who smokes who tells everyone he can quit any time. Be a good example; let go trying to mind everyone else’s business.”
G: The essence of the buddha is loving kindness, his walking the indian continent for decades is an outcome of his enlightenment. Never ever was his message to let everyone mind his own business. Teacher of humans and devas, with compassion for the world.
obo: The essence of The Buddha is Awakening. That is what the word means. Having loving-kindness is not being awake. There is muddleheaded loving kindness. Loving-kindness is a means. It is a calm happy platform from which Freedom is easily accessed. Being Awake is the seeing in freedom that freedom is being free. That is the essence. Your statement that ‘never ever was his message to let everyone mind his own business,’ is correct, but what you have said is not what you mean. How do I know?
Because you are supposedly responding to me and what I said was not ‘let everyone mind his own business’ it was ‘let go trying to mind everyone else’s business.’ There is a difference there which some reflection before posting might have come to mind.
What you intended is simply wrong. “Be a a light (some say island) unto yourselves, be a refuge unto yourselves, let Dhamma be your light, let Dhamma be your refuge.’ The whole of the Magga is about paying attention to your own business, not that of others. There is no instruction there saying: stop other people from telling lies, engaging in harmful behavior, etc.
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “The bhikkhu should eat what is put in his bowl for two reasons: to curtail his own wanting and to benefit the giver. Exceptions are made with regard to certain things like meat known to have been killed specifically for a bhikkhu, or by a bhikkhu, or upon request by a bhikkhu because these conditions carry bad kamma with them and it is escape from kamma that is the goal.
The rules reflect the kamma.
Ethics and kamma are two different things. Ethics (and morality) are based on a point of view ‘ditthi’. Kamma is a law of physics. It works a certain way whatever you believe.
Buddhist ethics are based on a goal proceeding from a ‘ditthi’ based kamma.
The goal for the Buddhist is the escape from pain by individuals not the creation of a pain-free world”
G: Nurturing that very painful world would be the obstacle to that escape, the individual has never been apart from that world. Apathy towards this world means that one is deluded by a concept of self since ones escape is based on the very interaction with what makes the individual wich is that very same world.
obo: When you say: ‘nurturing that very painful world would be the obstacle to that escape’ you make my point.
That the individual has never been apart from that world is also something with which I have no argument although never goes too far as there is the phenomena of temporary freedom.
Apathy towards this world does not mean that one is deluded by a concept of self.
This is one way of stating Arahantship:
“There is nothing there in anything anywhere for me.”
Samma Sati, the seventh dimension of the Magga, the result of having practiced the setting up of the Mind, (not as Bhk. Sujato would have it, the setting up of the Mind) is the state of being above it all, without carelessness, not bound up in anything at all in the world. Note that ‘without carelessness’ appamada. You could use some of that.
Escape is not brought about by an interaction. It is the consequence of the ending of the interaction of consciousness with nama and rupa. That one, beginning under the shitpile needs to deal with the shit is a matter of expediency. The desire needed to end desire. The stepping stone across the stream. To use it for more than it’s utility is to be picking up the raft and carrying it around on dry ground because at one time it was useful.
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “The escape from pain is seen in the ending of the source of pain which is in the kammic acts of an individual that follow on wanting. Pain is a thing I can stop in me, not in you.”
G: O so you didn’t need The Buddha? Believe it or not you stopping that pain is dependent on the effective tools another human being provided, his name was Gotama Buddha. Sure you are the one that needs to use them on yourself but without the movement of gotama’s tongue you would play around in suffering “only to end being covered in shit”
obo: I do not see where I say or imply there or anywhere the fact that I do not need The Buddha. However you are incorrect in your basic thinking. There are so-called ‘Silent Buddhas’. People who have managed the escape without the aid of a SammasamBuddha. There are two ways one manages the escape: through careful examination of the etiology of things and through the word of another.
As for ending covered in shit we will see, but at this time what I can say is that I am certainly in danger dealing with it as I am here with you.
As for what I said, I said I cannot stop your pain. I did not say I cannot provide the tools for you to stop your own pain. You have shown a confusion there between providing the tools and the creation of the end result which shows your own belief in your omnipotency. (That’s another word for you clinging to the idea of a ‘yourself’.)
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “There is no kammic consequence from eating the meat of an already dead animal for sale in the supermarket, there is pain in causing people guilty feelings concerning what does not cause guilt and misguiding them on the intent of the Buddha’s Dhamma. Directing people’s attention to concern about market demand for meat is directing people’s attention to an issue that does not bring them closer to the goal. It’s wasting their time. Wasting people’s time is causing them pain.”
G: You care about wasting their time but not about the the hellbound existence the butcher is going to undergo by killing the animals you pay for. Very logical. This is so deluded it is self apologeticism to the max.
obo: If you read before you responded you would see that the approach I suggest to this problem is to deal with the killing done buy the butcher. Dealing with that, from the first step, would be progress towards his escape from Hell. Seems to me there is more compassion for the fate of the butcher warning him directly than in giving him hints by the possible, not guaranteed likely unnoticed reduction of his customer base.
My concern about time wasting was with regard to the effort to convince people that their purchasing of meat from the market constitutes ‘demand’ which if eliminated will in some way reduce the number of creatures being slaughtered which will in it’s turn in some way bring them closer to their own best interest in escape. It won’t. To claim that it will is to mislead.
Since what I have said is not what you represent me as having said I dismiss your conclusion that it has anything to do with me being deluded or is any sort of self apologeticism [not a word]. Let alone to the max, jack.
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “However even if one were to ignore the fact that this discussion directs the reader’s attention to an irrelevant worldly issue, the methodology is not optimal for the suggested goal.”
G: Irrevelant worldly issue, i suffer you suffer, i don’t know why The Buddha bothered about suffering! It’s all so irrelevant! Afterall suffering is very worldly.
obo: The irrelevant issue is not the knowledge of the existence of the horrendous conditions under discussion, the irrelevant issue is the methodology being suggested to deal with it.
Sarcasm is a very dangerous tool to use in debate. It is next door to lying.
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “The argument is always made that it is the ‘demand’ that is causing the butcher to kill. The reality is that it is the butcher who kills and presents meat for sale that creates the demand. Time and again studies of inflation have shown that when the price of a cut of meat rises above a certain acceptable level, the people switch to a less expensive cut. The butcher then lowers the price to increase demand. The same principle holds for switching from meat to tofu and back.”
G: What’s this even about? A butcher kills, an animal suffer. This should not be encouraged, these are unwholesome acts. As a buddhist one should not partake in this system.
obo: I think you would have been well-off to have let it be at ‘What’s this even about?’ Admitting your confusion is a good way to begin to understand.
‘A butcher kills, an animal suffers. This should not be encouraged.’ Again, let it go at that I’m with you 100%. I am in no way encouraging anybody to kill or cause suffering. As a Buddhist one should not do these things. As a human being one is partaking of this system from the first breath. Extracting one’s self from that system should be accomplished in a way that takes into consideration all sides of an issue: compassion for the slaughtered animal, compassion for the butcher, compassion for the person not yet ready to attempt the escape who wants to enjoy a taste without needless baseless guilt.
G: If anyone slaughters a living being for sake of the Tathagata or any of his disciples, he thereby creates much demerit in these five instances: When he says: Go and fetch that living sentient being this is the first instance in which he lays up much demerit. When that living being experiences pain and fear on being led along by the neck, this is the second instance in which he lays up much demerit.
When he says: Go and slaughter that living sentient being this is the third instance in which he accumulates much demerit. When that living being experiences pain and panic on being killed, this is the fourth instance in which he lays up much demerit. When he provides the Tathagata or his disciples with such food that is not permitted, which is unsuitable & unacceptable, this is the fifth instance in which he collects much demerit.
Anyone who slaughters a living being for sake of the Tathagata or any of his disciples creates future disadvantage on these five occasions…
obo: And your point is? Do I say that the Butcher is doing a good thing? No. I will say that the Butcher is doing a bad thing. Creating much demerit. No problem.
G: Buying; is saying go and fetch living beings to kill them for food.
obo: No it is not. It can be, but it usually is a matter of going into the marketplace and picking up a package of material. If one goes to a restaurant and orders lobster, that is another matter. If one orders the Thanksgiving Turkey ahead of the slaughter that is another matter.
G: We have knowledge about the system. Having knowledge colors our intention. Spin words and uphold your static indifferent view. That is not the dhamma. It is a disgusting self apologetic system that caters to your senses and greed. It thickens your delusion.
obo: I do not dispute the fact that we have knowledge about the system. I do not dispute that this knowledge colors our intentions. I assert we also have a lot of things in our understanding that are just assumptions, garbage, so called facts that have been invented based on faulty assumptions, this to a degree where virtually all knowledge today is faulty. So the individual concerned with awakening does not rely on hearsay, authority and the rest, but bases his understanding and behavior on what he has seen and known with his own eyes.
G: The buddha and the bhikkhus ate meat to sustain he dhamma. This means:
When it is not seen, not heard, and not suspected, that the living being has been killed for sake of the bhikkhu, I say: Meat may be eaten on these three occasions.
Every kind of meat we as moder people buy has been seen to be killed, heard to be killed and verified to have been killed for our overfed guts.
obo: Absolutely incorrect. Assumptions all along the line. I have seen chickens killed. My family, like most here for a time during WW II raised chickens and they were killed sometimes in front of my eyes and for my consumption. So I know what it means when someone says: “seen to be killed”. Today I do not ever see an animal killed for meat. Today the butcher never tells me that he will kill a chicken for me. And today, (and I have asked) if I asked the butcher: ‘was this chicken killed for me?’ the answer would be ‘no’. And that would be an honest answer. Today even the butcher in the supermarket does not kill. Even the wholesaler from whom the butcher in the meat market buys his stock in trade does not kill. It is someone sitting in some office somewhere that is giving the order to the slaughterhouse to kill. That is the person to deal with.
quoting obo’s original post: “Which is greater? The number of people eating meat, or the number of people killing creatures to supply meat for people to eat?”
G: inconsequentual question! Since this whole mass of suffering is creating bad kamma. The killers doing the killing, the buyers doing the buying by intentionally buying meat that has an clearly UNVEILED amount of suffering attached to it.
obo: It was a rhetorical question; an important component of the point that followed. If you want to debate complex issues you should try to develop the ability to hold more than one idea at a time in your mind. Read ahead a little. Some of us do not just plod through life.
And ACTUALLY the suffering attached to meat is very skillfully veiled.
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “There would be a greater probability of success in the mission you profess if your effort were directed at the attempt to get those few who kill to abstain from killing than to get those many who simply purchase the meat of previously killed animals to stop what is for them a pleasurable, life-sustaining, and harmless activity.”
G: Pleasurable in pleasing the senses; discouraged by The Buddha.
obo: No argument. Or are you talking about outlawing pleasure for everyone. Or is our situation here that some people have seen the danger of pleasures and are making the effort to escape while letting everyone else live their lives as they see fit.
G: Life-sustaining; Are you kidding me?
obo: Are you going to tell me that eating is not life-sustaining? Two sides please.
G: Harmless activity: like going to a prostitute brought here by mob bound human traficking (hey i didn’t brought here here i’m just having pleasure). Buying garbage toys made by child slave labor (hey i did not enslave them i’m just buying them for my pleasure).
obo: Exactly the same with differences. It’s up to you. I’m not telling you what to do. I could sacrifice my desire to get laid and play with toys to an uncertain knowledge of their baggage because these are not activities that are essential to my liberation from this world. If I were to start a campaign to abolish these things based on this same uncertain knowledge I would be going off track. Might as well get laid and play with toys, zwat I’d be doing anyway. Playing around rather than getting down to the real business of letting go of this world.
G: Hey why not go to a more extreme example firmly related to the issue in hand. If you liked the look of human skulls would you buy them if they were created by chopping of the heads of enslaved people? Well i don’t need to ask your argumentation already gives the answer.
obo: This is another sort of argument one should avoid in a debate. Sort of like mentioning the Nazi’s. Inflammatory. Well ok. If you want to see if I can handle the issues you raise overcoming my reaction to an inflammatory statement, I think you have the story right here. If you see me unable to respond to the issues cooly and reasonably, responding in stead with an analogy which I carelessly turn upside down so as to make it say exactly the opposite of my intent, then you know something there too. Otherwise you shouldn’t play with fire. As for me, my nature is fire. I thrive on dry broken sticks.
If I liked the look of human skulls, I would not necessarily buy them period.
I buy a minimum of meat in a diet I have found supports my study of the Dhamma and which is being continuously modified in the direction of the minimum. One meal a day. Meat once or twice in a week. I do not know the reality, but it seems like the body, so long accustomed to meat, does not function well without it at this point where I am already an old man near death and unwell. Seeing no harm in it, I do the minimum. I do not ‘know’ how that meat is killed. I have a lot of information that I understand is a good description of what goes on, but I do not know. Knowing that information, knowing that I did not request the killing, knowing that I did not kill, knowing that the animal was not killed specifically for me, I buy meat for the body out of compassion for the body.
I see no use to the practice in skulls. I see use to readers in the use of an inflammatory statement that reveals in one’s opponent the inability to cope with arrogance and overcome pride and the gains, favors and flattery of a following.
— § —
G: If the dhamma is or was ever like this it would be morally corrupt but lucky for us the dhamma was never like this.
obo: You fail to make clear what it is you refer to by ‘this’. I do not see where it relates to the last thing quoted from my original post.
If you are speaking generally, I assure you the Dhamma is as I have been presenting it. What is not Dhamma is what is being presented on this board as the morally or ethically correct thing to do.
— § —
quoting obo’s original post: “Teaching that it is killing that is the unskillful kammic act not eating meat would be teaching this lesson properly. And hey! Look! That’s what the Buddha teaches.”
G: No the buddha thaught that the direct blank act of eating meat wasn’t unskillful, but not the intentional act of supporting a whole mass of suffering, like the bio- insustry.
obo: Yes the Buddha taught that the direct act of eating meat was not unskillful and that the intentional act of supporting a whole mass of suffering would also be unskillful.
But that is not the issue being debated here. So called debate.
— § —
G: I wish to you a whole lot of wisdom, you clearly need it.
obo: I thank you for your good wish, as for your commentary: Shame on you. In fact, shame on you for this whole carelessly executed post. But I have tried here to respond to you cooly and reasonably, maybe there are others here that can learn.
Bhante,
thank you for much needed article supportive of the Buddhist Declaration on Climate Change and its call call for help: ” “We have a brief window of opportunity to take action, to preserve humanity from imminent disaster and to assist the survival of the many diverse and beautiful forms of life on Earth. Future generations, and the other species that share the biosphere with us, have no voice to ask for our compassion, wisdom, and leadership. We must listen to their silence. We must be their voice, too, and act on their behalf.”
http://www.ecobuddhism.org
This declaration transcendental message and call arises out of the right view and open and compassionate heart.
We are blessed with great choice (unlike many people during the Buddha’s days) wrt what to eat. When we see the environmental degardation and suffering caused by modern meat industries and individuals self-indulgences,we don’t need more to make the right choice that is supportive of the humanity’s evolutionary pathway upstream – our of suffering – good for us and others as well – in hramony with the Buddha’s advice to Rahula regarding right actions.
Dana
obo:There is no option to reply at the level required. This is a response to the response to me under your response to my post. If that is supposed to be the end of the discussion, so be it.
It’s not.
obo:Maybe this goes nowhere. I am, as an exercise, even if just for myself, going to deal with this confused man’s response to my post.
Whatever get’s you ego going, I am debating with a heart full of compassion for my fellow beings.
Obo: Actually worldly concerns were not and are not either the core or the value of the Dhamma and the suffering inherent in existence is one of the three basic characteristics of existence giving rise to the Dhamma. You are perhaps confusing the idea that existence is painful with the idea that this pain is a worldly matter. The distinction is that in noting the pain inherent in existence one is not attempting to change anything in that. Worldly matters on the other hand are attempts to change things in the world.
A clear addict to terminology. The dhamma is a raft that get’s us trough those worldly concerns (suffering). The dhamma is the very bright shining light that is at the center (the core) of existence for a being aiming to get rid of it. It illuminates the dark and thus shows it’s workable edges. Drawing lines does not make them real or functional.
Obo:Your second sentence is self-contradictory. It is saying that the suffering of existence is not the first cause giving rise to the Dhamma it is the first cause giving rise to the Dhamma.
No i said that the first cause was a living breathing suffering thing. Not a thing that stands below a holy instrument that is actually only here to serve this very first cause. A surgical knife is only functional because it can cut not because it has a shiny bright silvery atmosphere.
Obo:I believe you have in your last fallen into the wrong speech and debating error usually phrased: “You have put last what should have been first, put first what should have been put last.” You can say that but you have not shown the truth of that statement.
Actually you are very right here, i apologize for any harsh words. This was clearly wrong.
obo: Actually this has been and is the Dhamma. I am not some person who has given the Dhamma some quick once-over reading. I have studied the Pali and the translations for some 50 years now and my practice is well rounded, not confined to book knowledge, and I am both familiar with what is said and have the resources to double-check. I do not see where I have understood that the Dhamma is some blunt object previously let alone here. Furthermore I am maintaining that it is far deeper and subtler than you are able to see given your performance with this post.
If you need to double check you are confined to book knowledge. A man tasting a piece of fruit does not need to read back on how it tasted. Not to mention that it is impossible to do so anyway because it only descibes on how to pick it. On your 50 years, that does not necessarily impress me. I have been studying the dhamma for about half my life now and i didn’t feel the need to have brought that up in here. I can’t comment on your insight on the debt of the dhamma since i can’t verify it. Your comments seem to be rather smug and dogmatic to say the least in my experience.
Furthermore age has nothing to do with it: Dahara Sutta.
obo: Actually what I say here has nothing to do with what one knows and sees (and, as an aside, what I would hope you would see here is that I am making an extreme effort to understand your garbled speech and respond to the intent.
You will never understand by reading it, even if you count words you whole life. A tongue made of stone will never make an appropiate sound.
You have with this post let your anger control your mind and the words are tumbling out of that cracked pot willy-nilly.)
I bet mister Rogers is mighty proud of you!
obo:Take a look: what I said was that it was the ‘poorly constructed methodology’ of Bhk. Sujato’s effort that was the problem. Not that the issue is not to be spoken of. The point is that in dealing with a perceived problem the solution should be such as does not create even greater problems. And that is not the case in this case and I am showing how it is not the case.
Actually venerable bhikkhu Sujato’s post showed a deep committment to loving kindness and compassion. Yours showed the same old dogmatic out of touch dusty gibberish this world has bled enough from.
obo: Revealing unwholesome acts is not what I am suggesting is an act of extreme anger. Setting one’s self on fire to protest war is an act of extreme anger. Using a method to eliminate the pain of one group by inflicting pain on another group is clear evidence of anger. The anger has blinded one to adherence to one way of looking at a thing to the disadvantage of another.
Actually self-sacrifice (has nothing to do with inflicting pain on another groep) can be an act of extreme compassion as is atested by plenty of Jatakas stories.
obo: Actually my understanding is one thing and my representation of the matter is another. You do not have access to my understanding. And ACTUALLY I am not misrepresenting the matter at all. These similes are talking about what you call ‘the mechanics of samsara’. Whether or not what Bhk. Sujato proposes is ‘activating wholesome components’ is exactly the matter under discussion. I am saying that his proposal is flawed in multiple ways that anyone with eyes that can see can see the result in being dependent on the muddleheaded, involved in the futile and will end in being covered in shit.
Actually he just said to have a bit more compassion for beings emerged in terror and perform a simple act to slighty eliviate that same terror. You however seem to be so far up your own ass in your wordplay that your eyes are possibly devastatingly blinded by that very same shit your talking about.
obo:There are these two fools: One who does not take up a burden that befalls him and one who takes up a burden that does not befall him. We are speaking of methodology. There is no issue being taken here with people who wish to become vegetarian. The issue is suggesting that the Dhamma is somehow wrong in not making it a rule.
O it is a rule, it is a rule that is written by no hand, spoken by no man. It is a rule that formulates itself by seeing a MODERN form of horror one does not wish to partake in.
obo:The issue is telling other people what to do which is a presumption that one knows everything about everything.
Let murderers be murderers, rapists be rapists, why did the buddha speak about right conduct anyway?
obo:A sick person in one’s family or residence or close proximity is a burden that has befallen one. A sick person one has never heard of or seen is a burden that has not befallen one.
It is my burden. All these beings screaming, crying, suffering, they are all my burden. Suffering is my burden. Gotama did not move his feet just for Gotama.
obo: Actually I am very glad to see, looking down, that this is the last time you will be using this word to begin your jumble of words. It was getting almost as tiresome to see as a reference to Nazism in a blog post!
Smug, go to a toilet and jam out a second one, sniff it. It might help.
obo:To say that the issue that makes a Buddhist a Buddhist is a concern about existence is to make one of the most fundamental errors being made about what the Buddha taught. Over and over again the point is being made that this Dhamma is not about an argument about existence or non-existence. The Dhamma always and only ever deals with the issue of pain.
pain of life is our existence= life is suffering Rings a bell?
obo: To say that making the world a better place is intrinsically intertwined with the goal of the individual and can’t be divided is partly correct, partly not. The very first step taken by the very beginning practitioner, the practice of kindness, generosity, the development of ethical thinking and self control and the setting up of the mind all instantly result in the world becoming a better place. Who is going to argue with that? The issue is setting out to mess with the parts of the world that are not under your control. That can be divided off and should be divided off.
There is a bit more that we should be than what you are presenting.
obo:The goal is the escape from kamma. Not the escape from the results of deeds, but from the entire process. Anything one does with intent except in the case of intentionally not-doing, is kamma-making and carries with it an identified-with result. The conclusion is that any kamma that is not the intentional not-doing of things is going to result in being bound up in kamma. In other words, not the way. Nothing that requires that something be ‘done’ other than that which directly results in un-doing is true Dhamma.
“In the same way as the sea always and forever tastes of salt,
This Dhamma always and forever tastes of freedom.
Anything requiring ‘do’ does not taste of freedom.
A follower does not have “to do” compassion it is his bright and shining center. Pouring out in every movement.
obo:The essence of The Buddha is Awakening. That is what the word means. Having loving-kindness is not being awake. There is muddleheaded loving kindness. Loving-kindness is a means. It is a calm happy platform from which Freedom is easily accessed. Being Awake is the seeing in freedom that freedom is being free. That is the essence. Your statement that ‘never ever was his message to let everyone mind his own business,’ is correct, but what you have said is not what you mean. How do I know?
Loving kindness can be an instrument to destroy hatred but for The Buddha it was part of his very nature, an effect of awakening.
obo:Because you are supposedly responding to me and what I said was not ‘let everyone mind his own business’ it was ‘let go trying to mind everyone else’s business.’ There is a difference there which some reflection before posting might have come to mind.
Actually the distinction there is not even worth mentioning. The first is a more honest presentation of the second’s hidden snake within it called apathy.
obo:What you intended is simply wrong. “Be a a light (some say island) unto yourselves, be a refuge unto yourselves, let Dhamma be your light, let Dhamma be your refuge.’ The whole of the Magga is about paying attention to your own business, not that of others. There is no instruction there saying: stop other people from telling lies, engaging in harmful behavior, etc.
No instruction needed it just comes natural, compassion works that way. You do know these words came from The Buddha right? A man that walked troughout the continent of India for more than 40 years to advise others on not telling lies, harmful behaviour.
obo: When you say: ‘nurturing that very painful world would be the obstacle to that escape’ you make my point.
Nurturing that very world is not caring since this is the core of cruelty, worse than hatred.
obo:That the individual has never been apart from that world is also something with which I have no argument although never goes too far as there is the phenomena of temporary freedom.
obo:Apathy towards this world does not mean that one is deluded by a concept of self.
If one takes the time to feed oneself it is clearly just that.
This is one way of stating Arahantship:
“There is nothing there in anything anywhere for me.”
True, but you forgot the part that there is something needed for them. A finger pointing the way.
Samma Sati, the seventh dimension of the Magga, the result of having practiced the setting up of the Mind, (not as Bhk. Sujato would have it, the setting up of the Mind) is the state of being above it all, without carelessness, not bound up in anything at all in the world. Note that ‘without carelessness’ appamada. You could use some of that.
Above? The Buddha never claimed to be above, equal or below.
END. MORE WILL FOLLOW AT A LATER DATE.
Dear Obo
Reading over my recent post again, i think the tone on my part is not proper, arrogant and very impolite (although i wish you could be a bit friendlier yourself). I sincerely wish to apologize and after all that i have said i consider you to be a friend in the dhamma.
with metta and best wishes,
Gotamist
Thanks Gotamist, for having the humility to apologize.
Hello Gotamist,
I acknowledge your apology. There is nothing more for me to say here.
Perhaps the title should have been ‘Why Buddhists Should Consider Becoming Vegetarians’? This would have avoided ‘touching raw nerves’ of some of the contributors here!
I appreciate the sentiment, but I prefer not to wrap words around with pudding. What I am arguing is that it is morally preferable to refrain from eating meat, not that it is morally preferable to think about refraining from eating meat. ‘Should’ is not a dirty word; and it doesn’t mean ‘must’.
Bante, an even more appropriate title is “Why Buddhists Should be Vegans”. Dairy cattle suffer much more than beef cattle, first being milked and, when they run dry, then killed. Supporting the dairy industry is really no different from supporting the meat industry. The animals in both cases end up dead! All this is just my opinion and I could be deluded enough not to see the truth – that I admit.
Life feeds on life… it’s the nature of this world. Sometimes, in the feeding chain, animals feed on animals that feed on other animals, and so on. Plenty of sentient beings are harmed and killed in both the cultivation of fields or the meat/dairy industry. Out of compassion, we should try to contribute as little as possible to all this suffering. I don’t think any person, Buddhist or otherwise, will disagree with this. I think, the first step is moderation in eating – we eat too much. This should be followed up by skillfull choice of foods that contribute to lesser suffering, according to the dictates of our own conscience. This is where veganism or vegetarianism comes in.
One thing for sure, we cannot avoid all suffering – no matter what we eat. The Buddha did not advocate veganism or vegetarianism… If he did, then it’s like him saying it’s ok to harm sentient beings in the fields but it’s not ok to kill animals raised for food. Or, it’s ok to steal milk from cows – that which is not freely given is stealing. The Buddha was a wise and comassionate being and he taught the excellent Dhamma, a way to free ourselves from dukkha. He did want to advocate vetetarianism even when this was suggested to him (as per Pali cannon).
Thanks again, Bante, for affording me the opportunity to engage in this discussion and ask your forgiveness if I have erred one way or other.
With metta to all.
EDIT:
“He did NOT want to advocate vetetarianism even when this was suggested to him (as per Pali cannon). “
How about “Why humans should learn to separate morality from religion”?
I have no doubt many Buddhist and infact, most human being with some exceptions, are indeed naturally kind and compassionate.
But trying to change one’s diet is hard, else we would not be suffering from over consumption…..and we are….
The heart says one thing, but the mouth craves sensual satisfaction….
Even among the sincere yogis, the most important thing is that we learn to master our senses, yet there are few who are that strong in spirit to weather through decade after decade….
I know of a young man who geniunely loves animals to bits, cried all the way home when he was young when he went fishing with his Dad who killed a catch infront of him, and yet could not last a week without meat on his plate….it was not lack of love or compassion, but mastery over his senses…
I guess the difference is that this young man saw the terrible agony when the fish was being killed whereas he had no clue about the suffering of the cow who provided the piece of meat on his plate.
This is why I think that watching a video like Earthlings, http://www.earthlings.com will make a difference to most people – once people hear the agony and see the suffering of these innocent creatures it is not too hard to give the craving for the taste of meat.
And, no, I do not have any interests, commercial or otherwise, in the organization that produced this video
Thank you, i know of earthlings, recommended to me by a guy who used to stay at Bodhiyana. I will suggest the link…..
Hi Jacquie, regarding your questions somewhere up the page, I’m away from my home now so don’t have my bookmarks ready but check this out http://www.drmcdougall.com/medical_hottopics.html. I think you’ll find answers to some of your questions here from Dr John McDougall. Best regards.
Hi Albert
I will wait on your reply….
This man’s site not so clear to me…
Thanks
Back home now Jacquie and I found my bookmark. Dr. Holly Wilson, a board certified Emergency Medicine physician in South Florida is featured on the IDA site and she answers questions on vegan diets. Do scroll through it and it covers B12, Vit D, soy, iron, calcium, meat, protein, cholesterol, omega 3 as well as the Weston Price Foundation. Here’s the site http://www.idausa.org/campaigns/vegan/ask_dr_wilson.html#march2011
Dont think John Robbins is an MD, i got his book infront of me, still healthy at 100…
Nourishing Tradition by Sally Fallon, though claimed to be of Weston Price Tradition, has fabulous recipe on cooking whole grains and legumes, based on long process of fermentation, which neutralizes natural toxins and make available more usable protein and minerals. For all those sincere vegans, please ensure you prepare proper meal combination to have enough nutrients. My husband worked at the Hippocrates Health Institute for 5 yrs, where he saw quite a few vegetarians with cancer, not because they were vegetarians, but he noted their diet has large amount of processed grains like white rice, pasta, baked products and plenty of sugar due to lack of nutrients….and also fruitarians with very bad teeth. May all beings be happy and well, may we all embrace Ahimsa….beginning with ourselves…
Dearest Bhante, thank you for provoking our intelligence to think twice……
Thanks, Adrian, shes part of animal rights activist, my niece (vegan of course) is one of those, they are very radical, even if their cause meant well. I would not take her words as bible. But then again, no health books by anyone should be taken as bible.
However, i will use her answers to start as research ground. She refers to The China Study which I have read twice, and will read again…
Thanks for the link. I really appreciate it. I care about all living & non living beings, i also care deeply that we stay well & use no
/minimal drugs etc that involves animal testing. And use minimal resources, lighten our footprints in every possible ways. May all beings be happy & well. And may all have enough to eat in this world…
People make the choice to be vegan because they can see many good reasons not to consume animal products but cannot find a single good reason to do so. And vegans are logical too. Congratulations to your niece.
When I was still a layman living in the world, I was a vegan for a couple of years before I left to live in the monasteries.
Actually I was a non-strict vegan. I would only buy, cook and prepare vegan food with some very limited exceptions (gelatin, and chocolate bars when I was on the road). However when I was invited to someone else’s house for a meal I would basically eat whatever they were eating. I would inform them that I was usually vegan, but that they didn’t have to prepare anything special for me. Actually most people would be good about it, for example by compromising and cooking vegetarian.
There were a few reasons why I took this approach. The first being that I was simply trying to do my part to reduce suffering in the world, for me it wasn’t “the principle of the matter”, but rather the effect I was having on others, I didn’t feel like a hypocrite for eating cheese or meat at someone’s else place, since it wasn’t going against my values. I chose to only buy and prepare vegan food at home, and I chose to eat what other people were eating at their home, I was simply exercising my personal choice in the way I thought was most contextually appropriate.
The second consideration was a purely practical one. I was living in the deep south of New Zealand, which is heartland “meat and three vegetables” territory. The option of cloistering myself with vegan friends was non-existent. If I wanted to have friends, then there needed to be compromise.
The third consideration was a strategic one. Being a zealout can be tremendously off-putting for all but other zealouts. I would talk about being vegan a fair bit, it’s not like I pretended I wasn’t to fit in, I utterly enjoyed being openly different. Rather, I wanted to demonstrate that someone could exercise responsible choices and reduce their impact on the world without being a fanatic about it. The most basic way to put this, is before you can really influence other people, you need to connect with them, if your opposed to them then no influence is really possible. For human beings eating meals together (sharing food) is a major bonding activity, so my approach was to develop good will and respect first by making such interactions possible though compromise, and then influence them from that basis of goodwill and respect. In short, it was a strategic decision because I figured I’d be more effective at promoting plant-eating over meat-eating, by being compromising about it – because it shows that compromise is possible, it doesn’t have to be an all or nothing thing where you become a fanatical vegan, you can just start eating plants more often, and meat less often. If you are 95% vegan, that is 95% as good as being fully vegan in terms of reducing impact, but I think that 5% of compromise can be a great lubricant for social interaction.
I think that’s actually the heart of it when it comes to the Buddha’s rules for monks. Monks should be compromising so they can enable the valuable social interaction of sharing food – including with people who haven’t been exposed to the ideas of harmlessness yet. But they should also try to exert influence by disallowing people to kill animals specifically for them, in other words, they should make a stand for the lives of other beings, but they shouldn’t do so to the point of being alienating. Of course the major influence, in the long run, should be exposure to the general ideas of kindness, gentleness, harmlessness and simplicity of life. I think that turning away from more harmful activities follows on naturally from adopting these qualities.
And finally on a related topic, I’m also of the opinion that the diary industry is more awful and in-dignifying than the beef industry. It’s also quite possibly worse for people’s health. I spent only a very brief time as a vegetarian before converting to full vegan, and was immensely glad I did.
Nandiya.
Such wonderful thoughts, Bhante. I really like this approach. Also, thank you to you and everyone else who has commented on the cruelty of the dairy industry. I can’t see myself going vegan yet, but as a result of what I’ve learned from this discussion I’m now going to swap my bowl of cereal in the morning for something non-milk. Cheers y’all!
Dear Beatrice, you can make almond milk, if you cannot take soy milk, 2 cups almond soaked overnight, rinse out, blend with 1.5 litres water, pour into cheese cloth over large bowl, squeeze out all milk, will last 3-4 days in fridge, can add cinnamon, cardamon etc
Thanks for the handy hint Jacquie! I might just try this out…
I have found cornflakes to taste much better with soy milk anyway…
Some people are allergic to soy…
Nut milk maybe an alternative if not allergic to nuts
Also, especially women who has breast cancer or history of breast cancer in the family, soy consumption should be limited due to its high estrogenic effect. The Okinawans renowned for their longevity are the highest soy consumption, mainly on miso, tofu and tempeh. And estimate only 85g a day….. Note that their soy are largely fermented, not made from soy powder which a lot of soymilk are made from…..but here in australia, we can get good cheap organic one from macro or pure harvest brand….
I mean okinawans are one of the highest soy consumption in Japan….
soy makes me ill. In fact, vegetables make me ill- i literally cannot digest them and went to hospital a few times when i was vegeterian. Gave up on that. We evolved as hunter-gatherers anyways so meat is better for me.
What i find is bad kamma, is when people prepare food for someone: whether it be pizza, chicken or anything that has meat- and the person refuses saying “i am vegeterian”- that really saddens me. It’s bad kamma to be mean to a person and throwing the food away. People have to pay more attention to what comes out of their mouth in speech and action than what goes in their mouth.
I even came across a few people throwing a whole dish away because it had some clam sauce.. i mean, that is insanity. Food is food, just eat it. Also you won’t change the whole world or industry by being vegeterian, so it’s still fine buying meat. Kamma is intention.
Thank you for this Bhante. It’s a beautiful article.
Hi,
I am from indonesia and I really want to learn more about Theravada Buddhism in Australia later(maybe around 2-3 years later). After I read Ajahn Brahm’s book, I really found a monk who truly live the teachings of Theravada. I think maybe there are many good monks in australia like Ajahn Brahm.
So i think it would be better if I study the dhamma in there and also make excursions to the various temples in there.
Is it would be difficult for me to find any temple in australia (specially ajahn brham’s monastery) if i am traveling alone? because i had never been to Australia before. What route should I take?
Hi risna
There’s a few good centers in Australia. If you’re visiting,let me know your plans and I’ll see if I can help.
Wow, thank you so much bante. I will tell you immediately if I were going to go there
Wow – thanks Bhante. This is indeed a powerful argument for vegetarianism today. I was vegetarian for about a decade and wrote about it a few times on my blog. I’ve lapsed in the last year or so for a variety of reasons – first health, literally being prescribed meat while living in India, then family, living with meat eaters and seeking to allow greater harmony at mealtime, and lately just a bit of willful ignorance, simply thinking that perhaps since I’m in England the meat is more ‘ethical’ than it would be in the US.
Time to reconsider and rethink that vow toward cultivating the training in not harming living beings.
Ajahn Sujato,
I do enjoy reading your blog, I find it informative and eloquent, even if I don’t agree with this arguement. I myself tried to become vegan but unfortunately this lead to quite serious ill health so I have returned to eating meat, not everyone can be vegetarian. I choose a free range, organic, macrobiotic form of meat and I believe that I am doing the most I can to minimize the suffering this animal endures before becoming my meal. I agree that the practices of the meat industry inflicts needless suffering ; torture, confinement and slaughter. But I have resigned that by making an informed decision about my meat that I am extending as much compassion to this animal as I can. I feel that this animal has, itself, made the greatest sacrifice to nourish me and I include it in my merit dedication when I in turn sacrifice for others. I have found that an informed decision about all the products I buy has a good effect for the world at large. I buy free range eggs, recycleable packaging, organic vegetables, biodegradable detergents and cleaning products. I recycle,compost, use solar power and leave as small a carbon footprint as I can. Being vegetarian is not the answer, not for me anyway, I believe it is about choosing and encouraging the least damaging option for you as an individual, your community and the world.
I would just like to know how those who swear a life of poverty and accepting alms, given by the Buddhist community, can be fussy about what they accept? Is it the right of the Sangha to question where offerings come from? What about communities that have a season of only eating meat because the ground freezes and they are unable to grow vegetables? In my limited experience it takes a lot of planning and substitution of foods to maintain a vegetarian diet, how do you condone putting these kinds of limitations on alms givers? And will this selective alms acceptance slowly spread to not accepting plastics, non- biodegradable soaps, products tested on animals because of the suffering they cause or the effects they can have? I am not ordained nor am I a scholar of the Buddhist teachings , but I do know what it feels like to be hungry and maybe the Buddha knew too, that people who have nothing and rely on the generosity of others can not afford to be fussy.
Hi Tina,
You raise a lot of interesting details. I agree totally, actually implementing things is a lot more complex than simply working out an abstract moral code. And if we haven’t been in that situation we should be cautious before passing judgement.
As far as the Sangha goes, yes, we just accept what is offered, and it is difficult to change things. Here at Santi everyone seems to have just naturally brought us vegetarian, so there’s no difficulty here.
There is a difference, however, between making a moral case for something, and telling people what to offer you. By arguing for a certain ethical position, you are encouraging people to reflect. Whether this needs to be enforced as a regulation is another matter entirely.
I would say the same thing applies in the other cases you mention. If we have the understanding of the ethical consequences of eating meat, then we have a general framework that can help us to guide our choices. In different contexts, however, those same ethical principles will work themselves out in different ways. The first thing to do is to say, well, okay, what do we do if there is no objection? If we assume that stopping from eating meat is reasonably possible, then what should we do? Even if only those people who can easily stop eating meat do so, the amount of suffering that is inflicted on animals will drop massively.
Great Blogsite,
Does anyone have ideas of vegetarian for babies, kids and teenagers?
Or know of any great recipes?
Sadhu Bhante!
This is a very concise, pertinent and important message!
I have freely translated it into Brazilian Portuguese and made it freely available on the website: http://dhammarakkhita.blogspot.com/2012/01/porque-os-buddhistas-deveriam-ser.html
Although I have not read all the comments and conversations through the page I noticed no one did reference for a very interesting website on the issue: http://www.shabkar.org/about/thesite/index.htm
There you will be able to find a very interesting paper from James J. Stewart named “The Question of Vegetarianism and Diet in Pāli Buddhism” (see link: http://www.shabkar.org/download/pdf/The_Question_of_Vegetarianism_and_Diet_in_Pali_Buddhism.pdf )
Another interesting point is that if one looks at the english translation of the texts of Ashoka Edicts will find a very interesting fragment that suggests that in the Early Buddhist Kindgom of Ashoka Maharaja the avoidance of the extraction, trading and consumption of animals was supported by the Buddhists (and even imposed to non-buddhists?!):
“Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, speaks thus: Twenty-six years after my coronation various animals were declared to be protected — parrots, mainas, aruna, ruddy geese, wild ducks, nandimukhas, gelatas, bats, queen ants, terrapins, boneless fish, vedareyaka, gangapuputaka, sankiya fish, tortoises, porcupines, squirrels, deer, bulls, okapinda, wild asses, wild pigeons, domestic pigeons and all four-footed creatures that are neither useful nor edible.
Those nanny goats, ewes and sows which are with young or giving milk to their young are protected, and so are young ones less than six months old. Cocks are not to be caponized, husks hiding living beings are not to be burnt and forests are not to be burnt either without reason or to kill creatures.
*One animal is not to be fed to another.*
On the three Caturmasis, the three days of Tisa and during the fourteenth and fifteenth of the Uposatha, fish are protected and not to be sold.
*During these days animals are not to be killed in the elephant reserves or the fish reserves either.*
On the eighth of every fortnight, on the fourteenth and fifteenth, on Tisa, Punarvasu, the three Caturmasis and other auspicious days, bulls are not to be castrated, billy goats, rams, boars and other animals that are usually castrated are not to be.
On Tisa, Punarvasu, Caturmasis and the fortnight of Caturmasis, horses and bullocks are not be branded.”
Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammika/wheel386.html
Hope this helps!
Let there be happiness!
i got a news that spirulina is good for vegetarian. I try to consume it now. Pretty good so far~
ooopss.. it seems part of my e-mails address is copied to the column name. I am risna, not nita
Dear Bhante Sujato,
many thanks for your great article about this very important topic. It is sad that a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle is not much discussed in buddhist circles.
Concerning practical advice how to stay healthy on a vegan diet I would recommend going to: http://www.veganhealth.org.
Thanks, Stefan.
Vegetarianism is a major part of East Asian Buddhism, but not mentioned much elsewhere. The incomparable bhikkhuni Ven Chao Huei is one of the leading animal rights activists in Taiwan.
Published on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 by Common Dreams
Report: One in Four Children Afflicted With Malnutrition
“Every hour of every day, 300 children die because of malnutrition.”
- Common Dreams staff
A report out today shows the toll of malnutrition on the world’s youngest, with half a billion children at risk of permanent damage due to malnutrition in the next 15 years.
The report from Save the Children, “A Life Free from Hunger: Tackling Child Malnutrition,” details the widespread problem of chronic malnutrition which leaves children susceptible to childhood diseases and at further risk when acute malnutrition hits.
photo: Anne-Sofie Helms/Save the Children
“Malnutrition is a largely hidden crisis, but it afflicts one in four children around the world,” said Carolyn Miles, President & CEO of Save the Children. “It wreaks lifelong damage and is a major killer of children. Every hour of every day, 300 children die because of malnutrition.”
“It’s time for a paradigm shift. The world can no longer afford to wait until visibly emaciated children grab headlines to inspire the action these children need and deserve. Unfortunately for millions of the world’s chronically malnourished children, permanent damage to their physical and intellectual development is not as obvious, and so it’s too often overlooked,” said Miles.
“Investment in agriculture is clearly important to making sure production keeps up with a growing population,” said Miles. “But let’s not forget, right now the world produces enough food to feed everybody, and yet one third of children in developing countries are malnourished. Clearly, just growing more food is not the answer.”
Assumpta Ndumi, anutrition expert who runs programs in East Africa with Save the Children, writes today on Al Jazeera:
The solutions are clear, proven and cheap. Making sure babies are breastfed properly and ensuring that children’s foods are fortified with basic vitamins and minerals can have an instant and dramatic impact on their health. Targeting the poorest with special help and ensuring they have access to health-care has equally dramatic positive results.
But none of this will happen on its own. Without the political will to stamp out chronic malnutrition, such knowledge will not benefit those who need it most and the world’s poorest will once again be left behind.
We know what we can do if the momentum is there. The four million children a year whose lives have already been saved by international efforts to stamp out child mortality are living, breathing testament to what can be achieved if the issue is confronted head-on.
But to date, malnutrition has not yet had the same benefit of high-profile campaigning and investment as the other major drivers of child mortality, like HIV/AIDS, lack of access to vaccines and malaria. We cannot allow this imbalance to continue. The time for action has come.
The report outlines six measures to combat the problem including harnessing agriculture to help tackle malnutrition with governments supporting small-scale farmers and female farmers, and filling the health worker gap to supporing health workers and deploying them where they are most needed.
Writing from rural Kolkata, having just finished a pilgrimage to the holy sites. Here we stay surrounded by poverty, malnutrition, and suffering, which make your description of the evils of factory-farming seems somewhat unreal and irrelevant. Here people live with their few cows, buffaloes, and goats and caring for them is full time.
Obvious question, if factory-farming is bad, why not work to get it reformed through tough legislation?
Having been a vegetarian for more than 30 years, I certainly feel it is a good way of life, although not always easy. We have some good stories of trying to be vegetarian in Japan, where some amazing things can get slipped into a salad.
What you don’t seem to appreciate or value nearly enough is the Buddha’s momumental accomplishment in establishing his Dispensation and instituting his Sangha so wisely that it has lasted for 2600 years. Despite the hostility and depredations of Brahmanism and the violence of the Mogul invaders, Buddhism has survived and spread, flourishing for the welfare of the world, us included.
Had the Buddha made vegetarianism the norm, the Sasana would not have lasted. It was noticable that the only Jain temple in Savathi is locked up most of the time – there just aren’t that many Jains around. Ah, but you know best, right?
Quite honestly, for you, Ven. Sujato, as a Buddhist monk, to utter words critical of the Buddha’s wisdom, judgment and morality seems to me to be a great fault. To create doubt in lay people about the Triple Gem is, to my mind, a sin.
When you wrote: “Buddhists Should be Vegetarian” followed by your first paragraph: “The Buddha ate meat. This is a fairly well attested fact. The issue of vegetarianism is addressed a few times in the Suttas, notably the Jivaka Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya. The Buddha consistently affirmed that monastics were permitted to eat meat, as long as it was not killed intentionally for them. There are numerous passages in the Vinaya that refer to the Buddha or the monastics eating meat, and meat is regularly mentioned as one of the standard foods.” Here, aren’t you accusing the Buddha of making a mistake, being less ethical than he should have been? Less ethical than you? If I’m misunderstanding you, please excuse me.
You could also say that Buddhists should all be pacifists, good people, honest in every way, kindly, charitable, just, fair, etc. We should all be enlightened too, but most of us are far from it. Practice makes perfect but not on demand, not just with wishing it to be so.
Later you add: “To return to the basic problem. As Buddhists, we expect that the Buddha kept the highest possible ethical conduct. And for the most part, he did. So if the Buddha allowed something, we feel there can’t be anything wrong with it. There is nothing dogmatic or unreasonable about such an expectation. When we read the Suttas and the Vinaya, we find again and again that the Buddha’s conduct was, indeed, of the highest order.” I have to wonder how you dare question the Buddha’s ethical conduct?
The reasons the Buddha gives in the Suttavibbhanga for proclaiming vinaya rules for restraint (when he declared the first parajika), go like this: “On account of this, monks, I will make known the course of training for monks, founded on ten reasons: (1) for the excellence of the Order, (2) for the comfort of the Order, (3) for the restraint of evil-minded men, (4) for the ease of well-behaved monks, (5) for the restraint of cankers belonging to the here and now, (6) for the combating of the cankers belonging to other worlds, (7) for the benefit of non-believers, (8) for the increase in the number of believers, (9) for establishing dhamma indeed, (10) for following the rules of restraint.”(SV1:37)
These rules of restraint are intended for you, as a monk. You ought to consider carefully before you write criticism of the Teacher and ask yourself whether you are not overestimating yourself and your experience, setting yourself up as wiser than the fully-enlightened Buddha and furthermore, whether what you say will enhance the faith of those already believing? Will it encourage faith in those not yet believing?
You say: “For those of us who have been blessed enough to have encountered the Dhamma, we have found it to be an uplifting and wise guide to life.” Words which are entirely inadequate to describe what some of us feel we have found in the Dhamma, in which we take our refuge! Such paltry praise might better suit a book review on Amazon of some popular self-help book.
Even that lukewarm praise is further weakened when you continue: “And yet: we cannot let our ethical choices be dictated by ancient texts. Right and wrong are too important. The scriptures do not contain everything, and do not answer every question. As Buddhists, we take the texts seriously, and do not lightly discard their lessons. Yet there is a difference between learning from scripture and submitting to it.”
“There are some things that the scriptures simply get wrong. The Suttas make no critique of slavery, for example, and yet for us this is one of the most heinous of all crimes.”
Stuff and nonsense!! Mara offered the Buddha the opportunity to give up his quest and rule the world. He wasn’t tempted. Why? Because he understood suffering and aimed for the ending of suffering. Had he become a monarch he might have temporarily ended slavery but that would have been a minor, temporary accomplishment. A Buddha is and does so much more.
What is there about rich, privileged white men who know everything better than anybody else? Consider how much recent history involves rich white men ostensibly helping poor women of color by waging wars and killing their men! That’s the line of BS that we keep hearing about why we have to destroy Afghanistan ….
Some days it seems that we are surrounded by arrogant, privileged white males preaching that women, slaves and animals and the whole world need saving and this (or that) is the only way to do it.
You wrote: “We live in a very different world today than the Buddha lived in, and Buddhist ethics, whatever else they may be, must always be a pragmatic response to real world conditions.” And thus aren’t you revealing your limited world view?
Too bad that the Buddha just didn’t have your experience or your knowledge or your wisdom. Never mind that the Dhamma is universal and that the Buddha, through his innumerable lives became knower of worlds, still, you seem to be saying, he didn’t really know as much as you.
“Animals suffer much more today than they did 2500 years ago. In the Buddha’s time, and indeed everywhere up until the invention of modern farming, animals had a much better life. Chickens would wander round the village, or were kept in a coop. Cows roamed the fields. The invention of the factory farm changed all this. Today, the life of most meat animals is unimaginable suffering. I won’t go into this in detail, but if you are not aware of the conditions in factory farms, you should be. Factory farms get away with it, not because they are actually humane, but because they are so mind-bendingly horrific that most people just don’t want to know. We turn away, and our inattention allows the horror to continue.”
“So, as compared with the Buddha’s day, eating meat involves far more cruelty, it damages the environment, and it creates diseases. If we approach this question as one of weights and balance, then the scales have tipped drastically to the side of not eating meat.”
Arrogant, privileged white men have given us industrialization, capitalism, communism, wars conventional, wars nuclear, plastic, the internal combustion engine, nuclear power, mountain-top removal, advertising, chemical warfare, napalm, depleted uranium, colonialism, wars of liberation, wars on drugs, genetically modified crops, bee colony collapse, global warming, SUVs, species extinction, industrialized agriculture, strip mining, clear cutting, fracking, corporate personhood, over-fishing, air pollution, noise pollution, human trafficking, culture wars, attention deficit disorder, erectile dysfunction, holes in the ozone, and so much more. You seem to want to claim that becoming vegan is a silver bullet solution to all problems. Sheer delusion.
Even throwing in giving up cars for bikes, sails for airplanes, open windows for air conditioning and warmer clothes for heat, this world’s problems are not going to go away easily. If all the rich white folks took up simpler lives, then maybe the poor brown and black people of the world might deign to listen to you talking about vegetarianism.
For privileged white men of the upper middle class it may be true that “Becoming vegetarian does not involve any huge sacrifices or moral courage. It just takes a little restraint and care. This is even more so today, when there is a wide range of delicious, cheap, nutritious vegetarian foods available. The choice of becoming vegetarian is, of all moral choices we can make, one of the most beneficial, at the smallest cost to ourselves.”
Becoming a vegetarian is certainly a good choice for lots of people (unless they become proud and obnoxious about it!) Here in India, huge numbers of people are malnourished and sometimes animals are more comfortable/better off than people.
Perhaps we all need to meditate more on what suffering, as the Buddha used the term, means. The animal realm is a woeful state; it is not a happy place. Happy little chicks running after their mother, still have to scratch to survive and they are unable to make many moral choices or improve their lot. Rats and cockroaches may be doing very nicely, thank you. Please think a little more about who you mean as “we.” As a monk, please accept what you are given, reflect on it and use it to sustain life while practicing diligently
PS Delighted that you used our photo of pindapata in Flint — we explained to our neighbors that the monks would receive any prepared food they wished to offer and many were happy to have their first opportunity to offer to monks on almsrounds.
PA
I am sure if the person who wrote this comment re-reads the article, letting go of some of the bias he/she apparently has towards Bhante Sujato, will understand his point, his suggestion for wise reflection.
There is no sin in trying to thinking beyond the texts, wisely reflection is a very important part of a true buddhist’s practical cultivation.
It saddens me to see this kind of comment in such a nice post as this, specially if it comes from a lay person (which I prefer to assume as a true bhikkhu would refrain from publicly pointing fingers and exposing his bias towards another bhikkhu to the whole world).
May there be understanding and wisdom, for it comes together with true morality and ethics!
GNL
Visakha wrote: “What is there about rich, privileged white men who know everything better than anybody else? Consider how much recent history involves rich white men ostensibly helping poor women of color by waging wars and killing their men! That’s the line of BS that we keep hearing about why we have to destroy Afghanistan ….Some days it seems that we are surrounded by arrogant, privileged white males preaching that women, slaves and animals and the whole world need saving and this (or that) is the only way to do it. Arrogant, privileged white men have given us industrialization……”
What has gender, race and colour of skin got to do with this post? Bringing them in is irrelevant. I do not see Bhante Sujato approaching this issue from a white male supremacist viewpoint. He may have white skin but the issue of vegetarianism transcends race, gender, culture, national borders and religion. He discussed the issue from many angles because he is kind and compassionate not just in theory but in practice.
The Buddha wasn’t a racist and Bhante isn’t one either. In fact from his postings he has been fair to all. There isn’t any need for any blogger here to resort to racial remarks like these.
“Had the Buddha made vegetarianism the norm, the Sasana would not have lasted” possibly that is the whole point and i think Bhante Sujato is just saying that by stating Buddhist should be vego – but obviously it would not be realistic to expect this considering that lay people may not have had teh means to give only vegetarian food.
I don’t think it is white men who are the ones that are trying desperately to keep women out of the Dharma, can there be a bigger sin than that?
I am surprised that where you are you as a women are allowed to have a thought or an opinion anyway ….at least you can on this blogsite. Would you not be jailed abused and/or hung in the public square if you expressed your views on your travels with the “men” in those countries. Try doing that in Afganistan.
Possibly you would be one of those uneducated villages, tied to a life of looking after kids you can’t afford and milking cows all day while at night looking after his family and doing what his mother tells you to do.
I am unsubscribing from this site, too many names calling….I will stick to my yoga practise and continue on with my regular dana & meditation retreats instead….
My utmost respect still to Bhante Sujato & Ajahm Brahm….i
I’m sorry to hear that, Jacqui. It is always difficult to construct a useful dialogue on the internet, and I feel very sad that many people seem to respond to what I say by name-calling and irrelevant slurs. I try to promote a healthy dialogue by encouraging and supporting the useful comments, and not engaging with the silliness. Drawing the line between justifiable criticism and abuse is not an easy one.
I think you should change your title then. Don’t say ” Why Buddhist should be vegeterian” -> that implies you want to change Buddhism. Buddhism is NOT vegeterian and food has very little to do with the path to Nibbana. Discuss Dhamma yes, not rituals, preferences, views and food.
If you want a healthier dialogue- then please change the title to something more gentle. How about “food discussion” or something like that . Not “..Buddhism should be vegeterian”. Because nothing in Buddhism is vegeterian nor should it be. Being vegeterian won’t get you out of samsara, so please keep these opinions to yourself. Just stick to teaching the Dhamma please. I enjoy your blogs but really don’t think you should talk about politics nor diet. These issue are not part of the path and are issues that are very gentle. No politics and food on Buddhist blogs please.
Jacquie,
That is a pity, I have found some of you posts really informative and useful and actually made your almond milk.
mcd
That should say, “if you were a women over there instead of travelling around and doing the obviously good and couragious work you are doing you would instead be spending your days tied to a life of looking after kids you can’t really afford, and milking cows all day, washing in a suer, while at night looking after your husbands family and doing what his mother tells you to do in the evenings..
(Or conversely studying for you third or fouth masters degree… which seem to be the disparity, like why do women over there either seem really poor and down trodden or the total opposite, Dr lawyers, phd’s, CEO’s etc) …
Hi everyone,
I’m stunned at how defensive people are getting about this – it made me think that attitudes to vegetarianism might be a really interesting area for psychological study. So I did some rough searching of the literature and it turns out psychologisists have given it a little bit of attention (but not much). I came across an interesting study that had a media article about the research, so have a look if it interests you:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100715091654.htm
Thanks for the link. Extremely interesting indeed. We’ve been a vegetarian for 30 years but try hard to be quiet about it — people who eat meat are sometimes very sensative (ie guilty) about it. We do find that if our dishes come first, friends have no qualms about enjoying them, meaning that we sometimes have to reorder to get anything we can eat
Bhante- Please don’t try to control others. Devadatta tried to make a rule to make monks be vegeterian and the Buddha did not allow this.
It’s better to put energy and focus into abandoning the hindrances, getting people to practice the Eightfold path & abandon greed and hatred. I met many nasty and angry vegeterians that arrogantly think that they are somehow superior by being vegeterian. This is like a rite or ritual.
Better to teach people the Eightfold path and Dhamma, rather than try to make people conform to your views. Please stop.
The Buddha recommended this way to look at food.
Puttamansa Sutta – A Son’s Flesh
Thus have I heard. Once Buddha was staying at Savatthi…
“There are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second, intellectual intention the third, and consciousness the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born.
“And how is physical food to be regarded? Suppose a couple, husband and wife, taking meager provisions, were to travel through a desert. With them would be their only baby son, dear and appealing. Then the meager provisions of the couple going through the desert would be used up and depleted while there was still a stretch of the desert yet to be crossed. The thought would occur to them, ‘Our meager provisions are used up and depleted while there is still a stretch of this desert yet to be crossed. What if we were to kill this only baby son of ours, dear and appealing, and make dried meat and jerky. That way — chewing on the flesh of our son — at least the two of us would make it through this desert. Otherwise, all three of us would perish.’ So they would kill their only baby son, loved and endearing, and make dried meat and jerky. Chewing on the flesh of their son, they would make it through the desert. While eating the flesh of their only son, they would beat their breasts, [crying,] ‘Where have you gone, our only baby son? Where have you gone, our only baby son?’ Now what do you think, monks: Would that couple eat that food playfully or for intoxication, or for putting on bulk, or for beautification?”
“No, lord.”
“Wouldn’t they eat that food simply for the sake of making it through that desert?”
“Yes, lord.”
“In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of physical food to be regarded. When physical food is comprehended, passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended. When passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended, there is no fetter bound by which a disciple of the noble ones would come back again to this world.
“And how is the nutriment of contact to be regarded? Suppose a flayed cow were to stand leaning against a wall. The creatures living in the wall would chew on it. If it were to stand leaning against a tree, the creatures living in the tree would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to water, the creatures living in the water would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to the air, the creatures living in the air would chew on it. For wherever the flayed cow were to stand exposed, the creatures living there would chew on it. In the same say, I tell you, is the nutriment of contact to be regarded. When the nutriment of contact is comprehended, the three feelings [pleasure, pain, neither pleasure nor pain] are comprehended. When the three feelings are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do.
“And how is the nutriment of intellectual intention to be regarded? Suppose there were a pit of glowing embers, deeper than a man’s height, full of embers that were neither flaming nor smoking, and a man were to come along — loving life, hating death, loving pleasure, abhorring pain — and two strong men, having grabbed him by the arms, were to drag him to the pit of embers. To get far away would be that man’s intention, far away would be his wish, far away would be his aspiration. Why is that? Because he would realize, ‘If I fall into this pit of glowing embers, I will meet with death from that cause, or with death-like pain.’ In the same say, I tell you, is the nutriment of intellectual intention to be regarded. When the nutriment of intellectual intention is comprehended, the three forms of craving [for sensuality, for becoming, and for non-becoming] are comprehended. When the three forms of craving are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do.
“And how is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded? Suppose that, having arrested a thief, a criminal, they were to show him to the king: ‘This is a thief, a criminal for you, your majesty. Impose on him whatever punishment you like.’ So the king would say, ‘Go, men, and shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears. So they would shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears. Then the king would say at noon, ‘Men, how is that man?’ ‘Still alive, your majesty.’ So the king would say, ‘Go, men, and shoot him at noon with a hundred spears. So they would shoot him at noon with a hundred spears. Then the king would say in the evening, ‘Men, how is that man?’ ‘Still alive, your majesty.’ So the king would say, ‘Go, men, and shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears. So they would shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears. Now what do you think, monks: Would that man, being shot with three hundred spears a day, experience pain and distress from that cause?”
“Even if he were to be shot with only one spear, lord, he would experience pain and distress from that cause, to say nothing of three hundred spears.”
“In the same say, I tell you, monks, is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded. When the nutriment of consciousness is comprehended, name and form are comprehended. When name and form are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do.”
– Samyutta Nikaya XII
Thank you for this Bhante. Much appreciated…I’m a Theravadin vegetarian and I agree wholeheartedly with what you say on the subject.
All the best
Paul
Hi Bhante, On this – ‘There are numerous passages in the Vinaya that refer to the Buddha or the monastics eating meat, and meat is regularly mentioned as one of the standard foods’ – Is it possible to share a few references, in particular to the Buddha himself eating meat? Thank you :-] With Metta.
Ohh, I don’t have time to check the references right now. Is anyone able to supply this? If not, try reminding me in a week or so if I haven’t got round to it by then…
The obvious case of the Buddha eating meat is the time when Uppalavanna brought meat to him. I can’t remember the reference, but I think it’s under parajika 2. Then there is the Buddha’s last meal, but of course the interpretation of that is uncertain.